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re: What are Socialism and Communism?
Posted on 2/26/16 at 12:38 pm to RoyalAir
Posted on 2/26/16 at 12:38 pm to RoyalAir
quote:
That's the rub with communism. It takes a massive central authority to implement, but Marx's theory suggests that once in place, the authority or state is no longer needed. But those who implement never step down.
Excellent description of why communism is so bad for humans. Power corrupts.
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Posted on 2/26/16 at 1:20 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
First I would point out that you are trying to apply hard and fast definitions when in reality most systems fall somewhere on a scale rather than firmly in on ideological camp.
Also, Nazism is NOT "right" wing per se. The reasons it is considered right wing are largely twofold. First, it was seen as a strong counter to communism which was further left, and therefore made Nazism right wing by comparison. Nazism was left wing relative to the free market, low government control countries of the world.
The second one you have correct. Nationalism was theoretically not part of a philosophy book version of communism despite the fact that every country that has attempted a communist system has harnessed some version of nationalism.
One reason people try to convince you that Nazis are not left wing is that left wingers hate to associate evil with their ideologies when any ideology can turn bad.
Also, Nazism is NOT "right" wing per se. The reasons it is considered right wing are largely twofold. First, it was seen as a strong counter to communism which was further left, and therefore made Nazism right wing by comparison. Nazism was left wing relative to the free market, low government control countries of the world.
The second one you have correct. Nationalism was theoretically not part of a philosophy book version of communism despite the fact that every country that has attempted a communist system has harnessed some version of nationalism.
One reason people try to convince you that Nazis are not left wing is that left wingers hate to associate evil with their ideologies when any ideology can turn bad.
This post was edited on 2/26/16 at 1:29 pm
Posted on 2/26/16 at 6:52 pm to Kentucker
Communism: A system of government that promotes equal distribution–of suffering and oppression.
Posted on 2/27/16 at 7:35 am to Mars duMorgue
Both are great in theory but less so in implementation.
The flaw is that not everyone is willing to work as hard as what someone else is willing. The reward for the onesnthat are the smartest and work the hardest is there so why do it?
Remove incentive and you remove willingness to excel.
The flaw is that not everyone is willing to work as hard as what someone else is willing. The reward for the onesnthat are the smartest and work the hardest is there so why do it?
Remove incentive and you remove willingness to excel.
Posted on 2/27/16 at 8:28 am to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
What are Socialism and Communism?
Simply put: government control of the masses.
Posted on 2/27/16 at 8:57 am to bbvdd
quote:
Remove incentive and you remove willingness to excel.
That's why it's so difficult for humans. Our emotions get in the way.
In hives, a worker that doesn't contribute, for whatever reason, is killed.
Posted on 2/27/16 at 1:55 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
Neither are defined. Communism's utmost parameters most likely excluded it from using money in any form, so we don't even know what it would look like. It probably excludes humans from attributing value to anything at all. It's Rainbow Land. Socialism was viewed as an intermediate step to Communism. What that actually meant is up to any interpretation as well.
In practice, we have sort of definition for each and therefore attributing a practical definition(which is just as valid), but even then, there is such a wide variety, I don't know what you can really call it.
Americans spend a ton of money on socialism. Most people wouldn't consider us socialist.
In practice, we have sort of definition for each and therefore attributing a practical definition(which is just as valid), but even then, there is such a wide variety, I don't know what you can really call it.
Americans spend a ton of money on socialism. Most people wouldn't consider us socialist.
Posted on 2/28/16 at 10:26 pm to GnashRebel
quote:
First I would point out that you are trying to apply hard and fast definitions when in reality most systems fall somewhere on a scale rather than firmly in on ideological camp.
I'm just trying to clear up what was intended vs. what was implemented.
You can't be a Christian and not believe in Jesus Christ, much like you can't be a communist society with a dictatorship as the two are antithetical.
quote:
Also, Nazism is NOT "right" wing per se. The reasons it is considered right wing are largely twofold. First, it was seen as a strong counter to communism which was further left, and therefore made Nazism right wing by comparison. Nazism was left wing relative to the free market, low government control countries of the world.
National Socialism is completely Right-Wing outside of American political spectrum. Let me clarify: Libertarians in the United States affix themselves, more often than not, to Right-Wing politics in the United States (even classical liberals fall more into Right-Wing politics).
That being said: Their philosophical approach is more like the Right-Wing in America, whereas their market approach, admittedly might be Left-Wing. I'm more a philosophy guy than an economics guy, and I think those articles are...more important. How you make money is different from how you treat people.
Nationalism (Right)
Religious (Right, not going to debate this, Germany was a very religious country)
Militant (Right)
"Family Values (Right)
I could go on and on, and I have my sources if necessitated but the fact is: They were right wing.
That doesn't mean that the Left has a monopoly on good things, I can't fricking STAND American Liberals, I can't STAND it. I hate them. The Social Justice Warrior movement is crippling free speech (of which is, quite possibly, the only thing I'd ever consider myself a radical) and furthermore: They're crippling ideas, imposing social boundaries and excusing behavior by blaming it on the system.
But I digress.
quote:
The second one you have correct. Nationalism was theoretically not part of a philosophy book version of communism despite the fact that every country that has attempted a communist system has harnessed some version of nationalism.
I'm not sure I explained it here (I'm too lazy to open a new tab to check
) but forgive me if I wasn't lucid enough in explaining: Most "communistic" leaders were simply using the idea to gather support. "Be apart of something bigger than yourself, join the fight for a better country, it's yours, it's ours, we're the future." Is very, very beautiful to a person of lesser education. It's also a concept used in Islam right now for recruiting: "something more than yourself".
quote:
One reason people try to convince you that Nazis are not left wing is that left wingers hate to associate evil with their ideologies when any ideology can turn bad.
NOBODY wants to be associated with Nazism, and I want to bold this so I can avoid having my argument misinterpreted:
NEITHER THE LEFT OR RIGHT-WING IN AMERICA ARE LIKE NAZIS.
Period. Most ideologies, philosophies and even practices shift from side to side. You could easily conflate the Left's word-policing and anti-speech attempts as Nazi-like in nature...
But the party that is super-inclusive and at times, completely egalitarian would be a difficult sell for a group that prided itself on White and Nationalistic superiority that was anti-immigration.
Neither group are even close to the Nazi party, but philosophically, Nazis are definitely on the right-wing spectrum.
Posted on 2/28/16 at 10:31 pm to TeLeFaWx
quote:
Americans spend a ton of money on socialism. Most people wouldn't consider us socialist.
I've...actually made the argument before that America may be one of the more Socialist countries at least regarding...well, economics and policies.
All markets, for the most part, are mixed.
But just look at our military which is absolutely a socialist institution, now our healthcare and perhaps even our universities.
quote:
Neither are defined.
I wouldn't go that far, but then again we could always go down the semantics road. There's a reality that needs to be addressed that this is not similar to Plato's Republic, who outlined what the governments should look like.
Marx and Engels never really gave parameters other than what the society shouldn't have, rather than what it should have. They, at least, were able to combat charges of egalitarianism and especially distributive egalitarianism.
Which is the part the drives me absolutely insane.
Posted on 2/29/16 at 7:19 am to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
I don't know what to tell you buddy. As you admit you are not approaching it by political structure and instead focus on "philosophy". You can't do that. Nazism was left of American government structures.
Nationalism is not exclusive to right wing governments. The strictest theoretical communists disavow nationhood but socialists have never embraced stateless society as the state itself controls resources.
Religion was an enemy of the Nazis. Read some history for Pete's sake.
Militarism is neither left nor right.
You have bought into a common ploy by "left" America to distance themselves from "bad" governments even if the economic structure is the same. They do so by saying mean people are always right wing. You can do better. IT is unfortunate because nobody seriously thinks that socialism automatically = Nazis. The Nazis economic policies were not its problem.
Nationalism is not exclusive to right wing governments. The strictest theoretical communists disavow nationhood but socialists have never embraced stateless society as the state itself controls resources.
Religion was an enemy of the Nazis. Read some history for Pete's sake.
Militarism is neither left nor right.
You have bought into a common ploy by "left" America to distance themselves from "bad" governments even if the economic structure is the same. They do so by saying mean people are always right wing. You can do better. IT is unfortunate because nobody seriously thinks that socialism automatically = Nazis. The Nazis economic policies were not its problem.
This post was edited on 2/29/16 at 9:49 am
Posted on 2/29/16 at 9:08 am to GnashRebel
I don't know what to tell you, buddy, as you didn't read thoroughly enough.
I said regarding how the American political system works, it's Right-Wing but even on the international scale it's almost unanimously regarded as right-wing. Nationalism (Nazism is a Nationalist movement) is their biggest POLITICAL STRUCTURE as well as philosophy.
I said I think their philosophy (policies regarding social articles) is more important than economy.
If you want to say they had a left-wing economy, I think that's less important than a right-wing political structure (which falls under philosophy).
Again, you haven't read shite. Which is what bothers me the most about responding to you. I went to great length to explain that I'm not leftist, and I even put in my Goddamn post above that the way Nazis bent speech and restricted it is extremely leftist in regard to America.
Please, don't patronize me and tell me to read when you can't even give my response the attention it deserves.
I said regarding how the American political system works, it's Right-Wing but even on the international scale it's almost unanimously regarded as right-wing. Nationalism (Nazism is a Nationalist movement) is their biggest POLITICAL STRUCTURE as well as philosophy.
quote:
by political structure and instead focus on "philosophy".
I said I think their philosophy (policies regarding social articles) is more important than economy.
If you want to say they had a left-wing economy, I think that's less important than a right-wing political structure (which falls under philosophy).
quote:
You have bought into a common ploy by "left" America to distance themselves from "bad" governments even if the economic structure is the same.
Again, you haven't read shite. Which is what bothers me the most about responding to you. I went to great length to explain that I'm not leftist, and I even put in my Goddamn post above that the way Nazis bent speech and restricted it is extremely leftist in regard to America.
Please, don't patronize me and tell me to read when you can't even give my response the attention it deserves.
Posted on 2/29/16 at 9:41 am to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
I've...actually made the argument before that America may be one of the more Socialist countries at least regarding...well, economics and policies.
All markets, for the most part, are mixed.
But just look at our military which is absolutely a socialist institution, now our healthcare and perhaps even our universities.
I can agree with this, but state ownership of the commanding heights is still a feature of socialism/communismm and we never did something remotely close to that, for example... nationalized oil(one of the DUMBEST things Mexico has ever done.)
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