Started By
Message

re: Dark matter and dark energy.

Posted on 3/6/17 at 12:49 pm to
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/6/17 at 12:49 pm to
quote:

Quantum physics may answer this


That has been the hope but I think the breakthrough if there ever is one, will come from another field.
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/6/17 at 1:34 pm to
Well, from my strict reductionist perspective I see quantum physics as the source of an answer for every question with which we are presently perplexed. Reductionism commands a person to look for the base of everything.

Physics is currently stalled in two areas of study, quantum physics and relativity physics. Roughly speaking, quantum physics is the study of the extremely small and relativity concerns gravity and the macro world.

Frustration abounds in the physics community because these two areas of study can't be united. Of course, String Theory does seamlessly unite them on the blackboard but in the physical world it's a no go. Edward Witten is the leading string theorist and his work will most likely solve this problem.

So, the deeper we go into the micro world the more answers we find for macro world questions. That's why I'm such a strong reductionist. I think of science and reductionism as synonyms. We can't understand anything unless we know and understand its parts.

Of course, there's a limit to what we can see as we go deeper into the micro world. Our ability to detect the very small is currently limited to the Planck Length, or 1.6 x 10 to the -35 m or about 10 to the -20 times the size of a proton.

From Wikipedia: The strings of string theory are unimaginably small. Your average string, if it exists, is about 10 to the -33 centimeters long. That's a millionth of a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a centimeter. If an atom were magnified to the size of the solar system, a string would be the size of a tree.

We may never be able to detect something so small. And strings themselves may be composed of even smaller units. However, we may be able to detect their effects. Using Edward Witten's math we may be able to understand their roles in the quantum world and then the quantum world's effects on our classically sized environment.
This post was edited on 3/6/17 at 1:36 pm
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/6/17 at 4:18 pm to
I hate string theory. It is just a way to get around mathematical singularities. I don't get why we waste our time with a make believe world of 10 or more dimensions.

ETA that I don't claim to be near as smart or educated as any of the brilliant physicists that theorize the beliefs.
This post was edited on 3/6/17 at 4:22 pm
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/6/17 at 8:17 pm to
quote:

I hate string theory. It is just a way to get around mathematical singularities. I don't get why we waste our time with a make believe world of 10 or more dimensions.


Okay, I get where you're coming from. String Theory does seem ridiculous at first blush. The idea that each particle type is determined by a certain string vibration seems ludicrous.

However, the earth's most powerful minds have gravitated to that field of study because of the potential for understanding both quantum and relativistic physics more thoroughly. And it's precisely because String Theory does get around mathematical singularities that makes it so appealing.

Now that Edward Witten and other theorists have worked through the math and have linked quantum mechanics with relativity the challenge is to somehow observe the effects of strings and prove their existence. Recall that only observation counts as a discovery in science. String Theory will remain philosophical until this happens.
Posted by Sneaky__Sally
Member since Jul 2015
12364 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 5:49 am to
String theory is even less widely accepted than dark matter at this point correct?

I have read a few books about it, not any in the last few years, the math is interesting but I come from a math background and don't follow much physics beyond that. When I was reading string theory was sort of the red headed step child without much support
Posted by HottyToddy7
Member since Sep 2010
13979 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 9:47 am to
quote:

Those two comprise 96 % of the entire universe. Everything our physics understands only applies to 4% of the universe


How is this found out and proven? Seems like made up bullshite that someone had hidden behind numbers and everyone who doesn't "understand" acts like its genius because they don't want to be the only one in the science community to not understand the "theory" or "formula".
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 9:48 am
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:08 am to
quote:

When I was reading string theory was sort of the red headed step child without much support


Well, I'm thinking you were reading about String Theory when there were 5 competing versions of it. Without looking up the specific dates, I'll say that Edward Witten burst onto the physics scene a few years ago as a leader in the field when he delivered a startling presentation in California that showed the competing theories are just five versions of the same thing.

His insight was more than just a one time occurrence, however. He has since shown that String Theory unifies quantum mechanics and relativity.

He is regarded as perhaps the smartest person in the world and has made String Theory a solid explanation of the basics of everything. So much so, in fact, that the field of study is getting crowded with young physicists who want to center their careers on it.

String Theory is definitely not a red headed stepchild anymore. However, just like any theory, observational evidence will have to be attained before it is confirmed. The scientific method applies to even the most brilliant theories and minds.
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
145085 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 10:26 am to
I think it's insane that 96% of all the matter in all of existence would completely obliterate existence if it came into contact with the other 4. Really makes you wonder where the frick it is
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 3:15 pm to
Not sure I am understanding you. Dark matter is certainly not antimatter. Dark matter is very likely a subatomic particle that dominated the scene after the big bang. It may even have been responsible for making the ordinary matter that we can see by releasing electrons in violent collisions with each other when they were densely packed together when the universe was less than a second old. It's just really hard to measure and observe something that doesn't interact with light.
Posted by WestCoastAg
Member since Oct 2012
145085 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 3:50 pm to
it was my understanding that dark matter contained anti matter but i may be completely off base
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 5:10 pm to
quote:

but i may be completely off base


Hell, there really are no bases to get on. We have no clue what it is, we only know it's there. Speaking of antimatter, could you imagine the weapons that could be built with the stuff? One day it may power starships but knowing the nature of man, we will also be a button away from annihilation much like the problem we face with atomic weapons today.
Posted by AUlock54
Member since Dec 2016
1515 posts
Posted on 3/7/17 at 6:47 pm to
Posted by PurpleandGeauld
Florence, TX
Member since Oct 2013
5171 posts
Posted on 3/8/17 at 4:05 pm to
quote:

Ha ha. Thought this would have been posted quicker...

#darkmattermatters =)
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/9/17 at 6:21 pm to
Kentucker, it scares me to death that our brightest minds in the field are dedicating their time and brilliance on a field that is bunk. Lots of young minds are afraid to speak out on it and think it to be career suicide to not take part it. I see no way to ever test string theory. It is beautiful on the math blackboard but new theories always replace older, inadequate theories such as relativity replacing newtonian physics. String theory has not done that.
This post was edited on 3/9/17 at 6:45 pm
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/9/17 at 8:38 pm to
quote:

Kentucker, it scares me to death that our brightest minds in the field are dedicating their time and brilliance on a field that is bunk.

Bunk? My good man!
quote:

Lots of young minds are afraid to speak out on it and think it to be career suicide to not take part it.

Where are you getting that idea? It's the most exciting subject in physics. Brilliant young minds are orienting to it like moths to a bright light in Summer.
quote:

I see no way to ever test string theory.

There's no way to test it right now. We haven't detected dark matter either but that hasn't stopped scientists from finding its effects. Hopefully the same will happen for strings. The more we discover about the quantum world, the more likely we are to see the effects of strings. That's just a logical progression.
quote:

It is beautiful on the math blackboard but new theories always replace older, inadequate theories such as relativity replacing newtonian physics. String theory has not done that.

Sure, that's the way science works. Newton was the authority until Einstein came along with general relativity. General relativity didn't have all the answers either, however. It is completely lacking regarding quantum mechanics.

String Theory does explain quantum mechanics and general relativity. Want a Theory of Everything? Well, it has to include strings.

Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/10/17 at 1:45 pm to
I won't bother linking everything I have read on the theory and we obviously have a different opinion on the subject but I will say this: young physicists are flocking to the field because there is a ton of funding and it's not popular to speak against it. It's like they found a math that explained or avoided singularities and began to fill in the theory around it. I mean do you really believe in all these supposed extra curled up dimensions of spacetime that are undetectable to three dimensional beings that live on our tiny speck of a planet? I just don't buy it. The math may be beautiful and it may give us the eluvise "grand theory of everything" but think about it. Just look at how many versions of string theory are out there. I could go on but I will leave it with one link....

LINK
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/10/17 at 3:44 pm to
quote:

young physicists are flocking to the field because there is a ton of funding and it's not popular to speak against it.


Yes, funding has risen because of the breakthroughs recently. Gravity waves have been discovered, the Higgs boson has been observed, the String Theory has united the quantum and relativity worlds and many more achievements in science have been documented. In fact, advances are coming so fast it's hard to keep up. If I was just entering college I'd definitely major in physics and pursue a job in the field after graduation.

quote:

It's like they found a math that explained or avoided singularities and began to fill in the theory around it.


String Theory is much more straight forward than that. There's no need for filler.

quote:

I mean do you really believe in all these supposed extra curled up dimensions of spacetime that are undetectable to three dimensional beings that live on our tiny speck of a planet?


I don't use the word "believe" because it indicates acceptance without evidence.

Yes, the theory predicts 10 dimensions, 11 if you count spacetime. We experience four of them in our macro world, the three classic dimensions plus spacetime.

The quantum world is subject to the other 7, no doubt. They probably explain entanglement and quantum tunneling, for example. Work is ongoing.

quote:

Just look at how many versions of string theory are out there.


There's only one string theory that's generally recognized by the scientific community since Edward Witten blew away the competition by showing that the five competing string theories were all the same.

It's as solid as the theory of gravity now. Of course, we still don't know what gravity is but we know it exists. The same can said for strings now that the theory is explaining more and more about the quantum world.

The article you linked says that an experiment to detect strings would require an investment equal to the GDP of the entire earth. That's the situation at this time only. More progress in the field will bring the cost down as it has for gravity waves and every other scientific mystery that once seemed out of reach.
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/10/17 at 6:19 pm to
I doubt it much like I doubt inflation theory but who am I to argue with the brightest minds in the world? We have for a long time been desperate to understand gravity so much so that anything that works mathematically seems to be easily accepted to the point that some really believe our universe is just a brane floating on another infinite brane world of universes or some shite like it.

Mathematics in general relativity predict that white holes are theoretically possible but just because the math is there doesn't mean we should predict an impossible object to actually exist. We may never understand gravity and maybe singularities are really there and we will never know what lies beyond.

Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/10/17 at 8:34 pm to
quote:

I doubt it much like I doubt inflation theory but who am I to argue with the brightest minds in the world?


Yeah, you're definitely swimming against the stream in science.

But that's okay. A lot of people are and that's what keeps science honest. Pity that it doesn't work as well in religion and politics.

quote:

We have for a long time been desperate to understand gravity so much so that anything that works mathematically seems to be easily accepted to the point that some really believe our universe is just a brane floating on another infinite brane world of universes or some shite like it.


It's called M Theory. No one knows how the name for the theory originated but it deals with circumstances outside our Universe. According to the theory, our Universe originated as the result of two branes, short for membranes, bumping together.

It's strange, but physicists are finding that they must set aside any built-in human biases if they are to understand the cosmos. They must think outside the human box. That's very difficult but I personally find that reductionism helps very much.

quote:

Mathematics in general relativity predict that white holes are theoretically possible but just because the math is there doesn't mean we should predict an impossible object to actually exist.


Math is a great tool for predicting and describing the physical world. We must recognize, however, that everything it predicts is not necessarily real or possible. For example, math says that time travel is possible both forward and backward. Travel into the future has been proved but going back in time is not possible.

Neither are white holes. Once thought to be the "other end" of black holes, they have fallen out of favor since Leonard Susskind won his battle with Stephen Hawking about whether or not information is conserved or lost in a black hole. Hawking argued that information is lost forever when an object enters a black hole. Susskind successfully argued the opposite, that the laws of physics prevented a loss of info.

Amazingly, when Hawking accepted his defeat and viewed black holes from Susskind's perspective, he discovered that black holes actually leak radiation and will evaporate over trillions of years.

quote:

We may never understand gravity and maybe singularities are really there and we will never know what lies beyond.


One of the rules of physics theories is that when you come up against a singularity, your math is off. It's a dead end. Like a rat in a maze, you have to go in a new direction. That's why Edward Witten's work is so astounding. He is not hitting any singularities.

Perhaps there aren't any singularities in existence. That seems logical. Maybe there's no smallest or largest. I like to think that existence is some weird version of a circle; that when you get to a certain point there's no difference in large and small. Existence is strange but hopefully not stranger than we can imagine.
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/11/17 at 8:59 am to
I found it disappointing that Hawking hypothesized that black holes had no event horizon and opened the possibility that you could indeed escape from one. I believe that he really struggled with the firewall paradox predicted by quantum mechanics in the way that relativity says that the observer should not have altered perception of physics when he crossed the horizon. Of course physicists never made a huge deal over his paper because of the respect we have for Hawking. His paper may have even never passed a peer review to this day.

What do you think of the guys who believe that our big bang was just a collapsing four dimensional star into a black hole from a higher dimensional universe? The math checks out and it explains how the temperature of the universe has been a steady constant everywhere we look. This temperature constant is the biggest driving force for inflation theory by the way.

I do find these unorthodox theories interesting and you are right in that we will never advance our understanding if we aren't able to think outside the box.
first pageprev pagePage 2 of 3Next pagelast page

Back to top
logoFollow SECRant for SEC Football News
Follow us on Twitter and Facebook to get the latest updates on SEC Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitter