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re: Alabama Governor: Use Education Funds for Industrial Recruitment

Posted on 7/23/14 at 11:57 pm to
Posted by ChEgrad
Member since Nov 2012
3271 posts
Posted on 7/23/14 at 11:57 pm to
Well, I would say this - there is no amount of money that will fix education so it may be better spent recruiting employers to the state. The only fix for education is the re-emergence of the strong family unit that values education. We were better educated when taught in a one room schoolhouse by one teacher teaching all grades. The problem is not money - it's people.
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35632 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 5:39 am to
Oh Hunter. I love when we hit on our philosophical differences. At least fosters a decent conversation.

I believe your flaw here to be all you have is a hammer to build a solution and every problem is beginning to look like a nail. There's many places we can look to for less government or at least a more streamlined approach. Small Business in particular would do well to see less regulation and really anything that can be done to lower the barriers to entry and the cost of doing business.

I'm not sure education is one of those areas however. It's not that private schools can't do it better, as a student who went to one of Mobile's best privative HSs and a Louisiana public HS....the academic difference was shocking. In cities, there's something to be said for private competition. In rural areas though, there's just not many students to go around and the competition model simply won't work. This is where public investment is useful, to at least deliver a baseline education to all students. That's the usefulness of smart government. It's not beholden to the need for short term profits and therefore in a better position to invest for the future.

The 21st century economy requires a smarter, more agile state. Our dinosaur government at the federal level is still stuck in the 70s and 80s...Obviously there's much reform and fat to trim. The goal shouldn't be to cut everything but to create the government best to foster innovation here at the dawn of the computer age. The answer may well be cut and let the private sector do its thing, but it won't always be.
Posted by JustGetItRight
Member since Jan 2012
15715 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 8:59 am to
quote:

The mere mention of raising taxes, despite the possible need to raise them, gets one voted out of office with a swiftness.


There are some taxes that could be raised that would have little to no political blow back.

The first and most obvious is the cigarette tax. The national average is over $1.50. Alabama's is 42 cents a pack - 47th in the country. Of the states that touch us, only Georgia is lower at 37 cents a pack.

There's absolutely no downside to raising that tax and a ton of upside. First is that most of that 25% of that money goes to the general fund and 60% goes to Medicaid - the two biggest budget problems in the state.

That measly 42 cents a pack generates $120 MILLION dollars a year. Simply raising the tax to Tennessee's 62 cent rate would generate an additional 60 million. Bringing it to the national average could potentially generate close to $400 million. You could easily expand Medicaid, better fund corrections, and restore some of the other general fund agencies that have been seriously cut.

Of course, the "down" side is that people might smoke less - but that's the real beauty of it. It is a totally and completely optional tax. Not one single person is forced to pay it and if they smoke less they'll be healthier to boot.

Only about 22% of Alabamians smoke, so right off the bat 4 out of 5 people are complete unaffected. Throw in that of those remaining 22%, roughly a quarter are black and probably aren't voting Republican no matter what happens and you've got the recipe for a tax that could pass.

It got a little bit of traction in the last session. With the general fund budget issues looming in 2016 (they're big) and the elections being 4 years away after November of this year, I almost guarantee you'll see it and a few other revenue measures pass in the 2015 session. There's even an outside chance you might see a lottery discussed.

Posted by Alahunter
Member since Jan 2008
90739 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:14 am to
quote:

In rural areas though, there's just not many students to go around and the competition model simply won't work.


Is that where the majority of the problems lie though? Or do they lie in the areas that private competition would be more useful?

quote:

That's the usefulness of smart government.


I'm not sure there is such a thing, especially when it's continually growing. It becomes self serving and the focus always ends up not on the citizens, but the need to perpetuate itself.

quote:

The goal shouldn't be to cut everything but to create the government best to foster innovation here at the dawn of the computer age. The answer may well be cut and let the private sector do its thing, but it won't always be.


There is much that can be cut, or redistributed, by taking away from failed programs and initiatives, and investing that same money into other areas that do work. Throwing more money at a problem doesn't fix it, it makes it bigger. The smart thing to do would be to cut things that don't work and invest in things that do.
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35632 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:25 am to
On my phone, so quoting won't be done here. I'll hit you back point by point and marvel at my general agreement.

Schools: yes. More competition in urban areas and school choice would be a good thing in those areas. That's likely the better strategy in those areas. So we should go that route. The potential for specialization is exciting in that case too. Language immersion. Technology focuses.

There is such a thing as smart government. I do understand why you wouldn't believe it, because there isn't nearly enough of it.

Finally, I'm basically saying we should cut the programs that don't work and invest in those that will. A leaner, smarter government focused on long term benefits to society and not wasting money to make us feel good.
Posted by GoBigOrange86
Meine sich're Zuflucht
Member since Jun 2008
14486 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:31 am to
quote:


There is such a thing as smart government.


Rarely can smart government co-exist with big government. It's simply an untenable situation. Too many layers of bureaucracy, too many interests with a finger in the pie. It's inefficiency writ large, and the consequences are often devastating.
Posted by tigerbait2010
PNW
Member since May 2006
29316 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:31 am to
I'm more mad that Jindal turned his back on common core.

In my opinion, the reason it wasn't working is that it needs to be implemented at a young age. It's not fair for kids in the 9th grade to have their curriculum and methods learning turned upside down. start at an early age, and the kids will do just fine. doesn't it put a lot of emphasis on critical thinking?

We need charter schools in the worst way too
Posted by GoBigOrange86
Meine sich're Zuflucht
Member since Jun 2008
14486 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:33 am to
quote:

More efficient government in education could work.


The federal government would do well to massively scale back their involvement in the education game altogether and leave it up to the individual states and communities.
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35632 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:38 am to
Right. If it gets in the way of doing the job better, you get rid of it. To me, it's waste vs investment.
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35632 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:41 am to
quote:

I'm more mad that Jindal turned his back on common core.



I'm amazed at how brazenly transparent he is at upping his conservative bonafides.

Common Core would be great if the teachers learned how to teach it. It's big scary federal government, so frick it. No need to change what we're doing...we can do it better here in Louisiana anyway as our education statistics show.

To be fair to Jindal, he did push education reform. Unfortunately, it was more about union busting and establishing religious schools instead of actually improving the system.
Posted by The Spleen
Member since Dec 2010
38865 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:48 am to
Privatizing education is one of the worst ideas to come out of the conservative movement in my lifetime.
Posted by GoBigOrange86
Meine sich're Zuflucht
Member since Jun 2008
14486 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:50 am to
quote:

Privatizing education is one of the worst ideas to come out of the conservative movement in my lifetime.


Why? We constantly see people wring their hands over the United States's education standing relative to the rest of the world -- what exactly has public education done to show how superior it is to private education?
Posted by tigerbait2010
PNW
Member since May 2006
29316 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:50 am to
My only rationale for his endorsement for religious schools is because Louisiana is unequivocally a HUGE outlier in this case. The majority of Louisiana's best and brightest are in private Catholic schools, so he's giving them the benefit of the doubt. With that said they're not all good schools, and it doesn't help the impoverished. pretty much why he backs the voucher systerm, which I'm totally for.


I really am amazed myself at how adamantly against major education reform so many are here when our current system is a total shite show. What's honestly the worst that could happen?
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35632 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:54 am to
Depends on where and how it's done. Seems to me more private schools tied with vouchers could do wonders for the failing educational situation in our inner cities.

In rural areas however, it would be an abject disaster most likely. Not enough demand for competition would lead to little church schools teaching kids about Jeebus and the dinosaurs. I'm all for public schools being an option but there's nothing wrong with trying to get more private schools into the mix.
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35632 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:56 am to
quote:

I really am amazed myself at how adamantly against major education reform so many are here when our current system is a total shite show.


I'm not amazed. I expect it at this point. It's irrational and reactionary. It's what you'd expect from the fine folks in this state. It's a shame too, our education system is going to hold us back in taking advantage of the glut of economic oppertunities heading our way.
Posted by nes2010
Member since Jun 2014
6763 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 10:58 am to
quote:

as a student who went to one of Mobile's best privative HSs

Not to derail, but McGill or St. Pauls?
Posted by tigerbait2010
PNW
Member since May 2006
29316 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:02 am to
quote:

I'm not amazed. I expect it at this point. It's irrational and reactionary. It's what you'd expect from the fine folks in this state. It's a shame too, our education system is going to hold us back in taking advantage of the glut of economic oppertunities heading our way.



This right here makes me extremely indecisive as to whether I want to move after graduating or not
Posted by The Spleen
Member since Dec 2010
38865 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:07 am to
quote:

Why? We constantly see people wring their hands over the United States's education standing relative to the rest of the world -- what exactly has public education done to show how superior it is to private education?


Because privatization leads to profit-motivated, with leads to greed, which leads to cutting corners, which leads to putting profits over the good of the student. That's not to say the current system is not in need of revamping and improving, because it certainly is. Total privatization is just a terrible solution.
Posted by Duke
Twin Lakes, CO
Member since Jan 2008
35632 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:12 am to
McGill
Posted by GoBigOrange86
Meine sich're Zuflucht
Member since Jun 2008
14486 posts
Posted on 7/24/14 at 11:14 am to
quote:


Because privatization leads to profit-motivated, with leads to greed, which leads to cutting corners, which leads to putting profits over the good of the student


You don't think these motives exist in public education? You don't see profit-motivated greed when teacher's unions shut down schools in Chicago to march for higher wages? You don't see schools cutting corners to meet federal standards that will guarantee them more funding from state or federal governments? Schools put their monetary interests ahead of "the good of the student" all the time. It's human nature to act in self-interested ways. What is it about public, government-run schools that somehow subverts this?
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