Started By
Message
For Mississippi (and Arkansas fans) Nutt vs Orgeron
Posted on 5/3/20 at 12:34 am
Posted on 5/3/20 at 12:34 am
In 2008 and 2009, Houston Nutt basically cashed in on a very talented roster that coach Orgeron built at Oxford (after inheriting very little talent from David Cutcliffe in 2005) by going 9-4 with a Cotton Bowl win both seasons; by 2010 it was apparent that Nutt's time was running out along with Orgeron's recruits. What I'm wondering is, do you think that Orgeron could've had the same/better results if he had been allowed to stay for his fourth season? 9-4 with New Year's day bowl in very good for Mississippi in the modern era; but looking at the sheer talent on that roster and the circumstances, it seems like the Sharks should've at least made a trip to Atlanta and had a 10 win season: Bama was good, but Saban hadn't really build it into the machine it is now, LSU was beginning the Miles offensive ineptitude stretch, Auburn and Arkansas were rebuilding and 2009 was Mullen's first season at MSU.
I understand that Orgeron didn't get a "signature win" to validate his rebuilding process, but he came damn close many times (2006 LSU, Auburn and Georgia, 2007 Alabama and Floridacome to mind)
I understand that Orgeron didn't get a "signature win" to validate his rebuilding process, but he came damn close many times (2006 LSU, Auburn and Georgia, 2007 Alabama and Floridacome to mind)
Posted on 5/3/20 at 1:10 am to Mithridates6
quote:
What I'm wondering is, do you think that Orgeron could've had the same/better results if he had been allowed to stay for his fourth season?
It's hard to say but there's a big difference between the two coaches. Orgeron continued to coach football after leaving Ole Miss. He learned from his mistakes and used the experience to improve himself as a head coach.
Hootie hasn't coached since.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 1:13 am to Mithridates6
I was at that 2007 Alabama-Mississippi game. I still remember the high heel being thrown on the field.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 3:22 am to Mithridates6
No. Orgeron had not yet learned how to be a head coach at the time. Nutt took full advantage of his recruiting, however. Orgeron recruited a lot of great players for Nutt those two years with none other than Hugh Freeze as his recruiting coordinator. After the players left and Nutt didn’t retain Freeze the program sunk.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 4:33 am to Mithridates6
I think Orgeron was still learning on the job and didn't really know what he was doing. So another year and it would end up no different. He needed to evaluate himself and change strategies, no better time to learn than to step from the head coaching position.
Houston Nutt is a jackass and a sleazy used car salesman(the bad credit kind)and would continue to squander the talent that he inherited from Orgeron. If it wasn't for Matt Jones and Darren Mcfadden, his lazy arse would have been fired in Arkansas. But his lucky breaks and quite a bit of brown nosing is what kept him hovering above the hot seat.
So quite a different between the two and were going opposite directions. Orgeron learned from his experiences and changed. Nutt was cashing his checks from Arkansas and Ole Miss then hauled arse.
Houston Nutt is a jackass and a sleazy used car salesman(the bad credit kind)and would continue to squander the talent that he inherited from Orgeron. If it wasn't for Matt Jones and Darren Mcfadden, his lazy arse would have been fired in Arkansas. But his lucky breaks and quite a bit of brown nosing is what kept him hovering above the hot seat.
So quite a different between the two and were going opposite directions. Orgeron learned from his experiences and changed. Nutt was cashing his checks from Arkansas and Ole Miss then hauled arse.
This post was edited on 5/3/20 at 4:36 am
Posted on 5/3/20 at 7:50 am to dchog
Nutt was blessed with tremendous luck at his two high profile coaching gigs when you think about it.
At Arkansas he inherited a team that was packed with talent courtesy of Danny Ford, who had begged to come back for one more year because he knew what he had. Nutt started off red hot as a result.
You could, however, make a very strong argument that Nutt underachieved at Arkansas given the talent level of some of his teams at the time.
When his seat started getting hot (caused by his own actions) at Arkansas he jumped ship to Ole Miss and once again walked into a dream set up. A team with a ton of talent that he could be immediately successful with.
As others have said, I think Coach O needed to wander in the desert for a few years after the Ole Miss job to really develop into being a Head Coach. He was still learning the job when he became the LSU Head Coach.
The big difference, from what I can tell, between Nutt and Orgeron is that Nutt refused to learn from his past mistakes. He was going to do it his way or no way at all. Orgeron, to his credit, made some real bad decisions, but he learned from them. He has improved as he goes along.
The only thing going forward I'm not sure Orgeron will ever be able to shake is a tendency to put the brakes on when he has a big lead. For two reasons. One, he is a defensive coach and the urge to milk a lead and run out the clock is practically in his DNA. Two, for all his blustery and gruff persona Coach O really does not want to embarrass his fellow coaches by running up the score on them.
At Arkansas he inherited a team that was packed with talent courtesy of Danny Ford, who had begged to come back for one more year because he knew what he had. Nutt started off red hot as a result.
You could, however, make a very strong argument that Nutt underachieved at Arkansas given the talent level of some of his teams at the time.
When his seat started getting hot (caused by his own actions) at Arkansas he jumped ship to Ole Miss and once again walked into a dream set up. A team with a ton of talent that he could be immediately successful with.
As others have said, I think Coach O needed to wander in the desert for a few years after the Ole Miss job to really develop into being a Head Coach. He was still learning the job when he became the LSU Head Coach.
The big difference, from what I can tell, between Nutt and Orgeron is that Nutt refused to learn from his past mistakes. He was going to do it his way or no way at all. Orgeron, to his credit, made some real bad decisions, but he learned from them. He has improved as he goes along.
The only thing going forward I'm not sure Orgeron will ever be able to shake is a tendency to put the brakes on when he has a big lead. For two reasons. One, he is a defensive coach and the urge to milk a lead and run out the clock is practically in his DNA. Two, for all his blustery and gruff persona Coach O really does not want to embarrass his fellow coaches by running up the score on them.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 9:36 am to Arksulli
quote:
Houston Nutt is a jackass and a sleazy used car salesman
This x100. He’s probably the shittiest head coach Ole Miss has ever had from running/building a program standpoint. He took a talented roster. Underachieved with it. And then coasted in recruiting while allowing the players to run the asylum. He cratered the program. I think when Freeze took over ole miss had 20+ players that risked being academically ineligible. In addition several players had either transferred or been kicked off the team for run ins with the law. Our roster looked like a program that had received the death penalty. Then the guy returns to be an instrumental figure in taking down Hugh Freeze. frick Houston Nutt so hard.
Orgeron probably gets another year if he doesn’t go for it on 4th down on the 50 yard line up two possessions in the 4th quarter which ended up costing ole miss the Egg Bowl. He built an incredibly talented roster. Arguably More talented than any team Freeze built. His defenses were stout and gave up something like 17 points per game anchored by Patrick Willis. He just never had a QB. He rolled the dice on Brent Schaefer and crapped out. If O got a 4th year he would have had Javan Snead (rip) at QB and the plan was to promote Freeze to OC and run a spread (which was actually a rarely seen offense at the time). I think he wins at least 9 games in year 4.The big money boosters just never gave the guy a chance.
Pretty crazy how things turn out. If all of those events happen differently maybe we don’t have Kiffin right now whom I believe will be an amazing fit for ole miss. Similar to O at LSU.
This post was edited on 5/3/20 at 9:43 am
Posted on 5/3/20 at 9:49 am to Arksulli
quote:
The only thing going forward I'm not sure Orgeron will ever be able to shake is a tendency to put the brakes on when he has a big lead. For two reasons. One, he is a defensive coach and the urge to milk a lead and run out the clock is practically in his DNA. Two, for all his blustery and gruff persona Coach O really does not want to embarrass his fellow coaches by running up the score on them.
This.
He wanted to go conservative vs Texas, luckily Ensminger made the final decision.
This is why the Alabama game got "close" at the end.
They seemed to learn vs Oklahoma and put that game out of reach because they knew Oklahoma's offense could score quick.
I rewatched the Clemson game last night, they were just running clock for much of the 4th quarter.
I dont know if this will be as big of an issue in an average season though because LSU's defense will usually be better while their offense wont be as good.
This post was edited on 5/3/20 at 9:49 am
Posted on 5/3/20 at 10:48 am to Arksulli
Yeah I never understood why Arkansas fans hated Nutt, then I realized that his best seasons are BOTH programs were him cashing in on his predecessors' recruiting. 2006 Arkansas was good, but kind of a one trick pony; 1998 Arkansas had a really balanced attack with Stoerner throwing to Anthony Lucas (did Nutt ever have another 1,000 yd receiver at Arkansas?)
Posted on 5/3/20 at 12:20 pm to Arksulli
Nutt had major backing from Frank Broyles and major boosters, he knew how to talk the talk and be on the good graces with them. Now if this was a prime Frank Broyles, he would never last 10 years. But instead he became the first head coach to not be fired after back to back seasons since the 50s. Nutt really didn't have that luxury at Ole Miss because he never had backing like he did at Arkansas.
The 98 and 99 teams were loaded and mirrored the Ole Miss teams of 08 and 09. He should have won an SEC title with Ford's players but instead was happy to be in Poulan leaf blower bowl.
No doubt Nutt underachieved at Arkansas and Ole Miss. The years he underachieved were 98,99,02,03,06 and 07. Those teams had a chance to win 10 or more games and win an SEC title or more. The 2000 recruiting class was the worst in Arkansas history. It wasn't because of the ranking but he signed a bunch of non qualifiers and others were arrested or didn't make it on campus. I think only three players were left from that class. That is why in 2001 season, Nutt panicked and started taking off redshirts. That led to back to back losing seasons in 04 and 05.
Nutt refused to change with the times and when he had assistants like Joe Ferguson, they didn't stay for long. He would luck out and find a diamond in rough in Tarvaris Jackson RIP. But he wouldn't take the time or hire a OC/quarterbacks coach to develop him. Same problems with Mitch Mustain.
The 98 and 99 teams were loaded and mirrored the Ole Miss teams of 08 and 09. He should have won an SEC title with Ford's players but instead was happy to be in Poulan leaf blower bowl.
No doubt Nutt underachieved at Arkansas and Ole Miss. The years he underachieved were 98,99,02,03,06 and 07. Those teams had a chance to win 10 or more games and win an SEC title or more. The 2000 recruiting class was the worst in Arkansas history. It wasn't because of the ranking but he signed a bunch of non qualifiers and others were arrested or didn't make it on campus. I think only three players were left from that class. That is why in 2001 season, Nutt panicked and started taking off redshirts. That led to back to back losing seasons in 04 and 05.
Nutt refused to change with the times and when he had assistants like Joe Ferguson, they didn't stay for long. He would luck out and find a diamond in rough in Tarvaris Jackson RIP. But he wouldn't take the time or hire a OC/quarterbacks coach to develop him. Same problems with Mitch Mustain.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 12:43 pm to Mithridates6
The 2006 team had first round draft picks on both sides of the ball. What led to the firestorm of that season was Nutt benched five star Mitch Mustain after his first interception against South Carolina in favor of Casey Dick. Mustain was 8-0 as a freshman and would never start or play at Arkansas ever again. For the first time since the 99 season, they had a semblance of a balanced offense. Mustain certainly wasn't elite but he was getting better after each SEC game. Arkansas would have beaten both LSU and Florida had he remained the starter.
A local sports reporter by the name of Mike Erwin said that Nutt was afraid that Gus Malzahn was going to take his job and so when he won his typical eight games, he pulled Mustain so that Malzahn wouldn't take the credit. Nutt didn't care a bout winning the SEC, he just wanted to win enough games to secure his job. Nutt would throw players under the bus or other assistants if he felt his job was in danger.
A local sports reporter by the name of Mike Erwin said that Nutt was afraid that Gus Malzahn was going to take his job and so when he won his typical eight games, he pulled Mustain so that Malzahn wouldn't take the credit. Nutt didn't care a bout winning the SEC, he just wanted to win enough games to secure his job. Nutt would throw players under the bus or other assistants if he felt his job was in danger.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 12:52 pm to Arksulli
quote:
The only thing going forward I'm not sure Orgeron will ever be able to shake is a tendency to put the brakes on when he has a big lead. For two reasons. One, he is a defensive coach and the urge to milk a lead and run out the clock is practically in his DNA. Two, for all his blustery and gruff persona Coach O really does not want to embarrass his fellow coaches by running up the score on them.
I agree. I think it may also have to do with him remembering how he lost the UM job by going for it on 4th in that 2007 Egg Bowl. He was very aggressive at UM in general (see onsides kick at LSU in 2006). We should've gone gone for it on 4th a couple times in Bama territory last season when the lead was 33-13 and in that Citrus Bowl against ND he kicked a FG from one or two yards out instead of trying to basically seal the game with a TD.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 12:53 pm to dchog
Yeah Mustain and Damien Williams should've been a good passing combination for years in Fayetteville, instead them and Malzahn got run out.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 1:08 pm to Mithridates6
I knew Malzahn's days would be numbered the moment I saw he was on the cover of Hooten's (the main football preseason magazine in Arkansas). Nutt couldn't stand for anyone else to get any attention over him.
Dear lord, I despise that guy to this day.
Dear lord, I despise that guy to this day.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 1:15 pm to tkeefer
quote:
Dear lord, I despise that guy to this day.
It is easy to dislike Houston Nutt. He just exudes used car salesman. It leaks out of his pores.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 1:36 pm to Mithridates6
Coach O needed one more year at Ole Miss. His problem was he never had a good QB. He had recruited Snead (R.I.P.), but he had to sit out a year due to transfer rules. Had he had Snead, the results on the field would have been way different. Hootie was handed a loaded team and just squandered it away by not recruiting at all.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 1:49 pm to Mithridates6
quote:
do you think that Orgeron could've had the same/better results if he had been allowed to stay for his fourth season?
I don't think O would have had success there no matter how long he stayed. At that point in his career he was a recruiter posing as a HC. Him getting fired at OM and not being retained at USC is what led to him growing and maturing as a coach. Without those "setbacks" I don't see him becoming a great coach.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 2:10 pm to Porky
quote:
It's hard to say but there's a big difference between the two coaches. Orgeron continued to coach football after leaving Ole Miss. He learned from his mistakes and used the experience to improve himself as a head coach.
Hootie hasn't coached since.
Good and fair points Porky, I agree with your assessment. I think Coach O went back to Coach Pete Carroll and he stated everything you told me not to do as an HC I did. The next time he had a shot as an HC was the interim Gig at USC, showed major improvement as an HC, did very good job in tough interim situation at LSU and now elite job as HC at LSU.
Posted on 5/3/20 at 2:28 pm to JKChesterton
quote:
Good and fair points Porky, I agree with your assessment. I think Coach O went back to Coach Pete Carroll and he stated everything you told me not to do as an HC I did. The next time he had a shot as an HC was the interim Gig at USC, showed major improvement as an HC, did very good job in tough interim situation at LSU and now elite job as HC at LSU.
He has shown the capability to learn from his mistakes. Which is actually pretty darn rare for a HC. Now, that having been said, sure... the wheels could fall off for him at LSU. College Football can be weird. He might start believing his own press clippings and then, viola, disaster.
As of right now I think he is one of the three best head coaches in the SEC, along with Nick Saban and Stoops (seriously Stoops is a freaking miracle worker).
Posted on 5/3/20 at 3:04 pm to Mithridates6
Nutt had nine win seasons his fifth and sixth year here.That's some damn deep talent Ford left him for sure.His best season was with his recruits.
I'm not saying he was great,but he was what we needed when he got here,and with the exception of two down years he did a decent,though sometimes aggravating,job.
He had a chance to take the Nebraska job before the two down years,which we all knew were coming,but he turned it down.I bet he wishes he would have taken it now.
He's not the monster some choose to make him out to be.
I'm not saying he was great,but he was what we needed when he got here,and with the exception of two down years he did a decent,though sometimes aggravating,job.
He had a chance to take the Nebraska job before the two down years,which we all knew were coming,but he turned it down.I bet he wishes he would have taken it now.
He's not the monster some choose to make him out to be.
This post was edited on 5/3/20 at 3:05 pm
Back to top
Follow SECRant for SEC Football News