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re: TOT: Tech students riot and burn police car
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:46 pm to FaCubeItches
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:46 pm to FaCubeItches
quote:
So if officers (who are carrying guns) attempt an improper arrest, or raid the wrong house, then they can be freely killed?
Having had to defend some use-of-force cases, the departments I had to work with had policies of *escalation*, not de-escalation. That's not always the best idea - by a long shot. There are certainly times where de-escalation isn't possible, but a policy of always escalating is just flat-out stupid. Even if the officer isn't charged or convicted, in an awful lot of those types of cases, the taxpayers are going to get shithammered with a very large civil verdict.
I should note, I've had one case where the department's firearms instructor's statement to people in training was "If you can explain your way out of it, it's a good shoot." Juries fricking *LOVED* that statement - maybe even more than the plaintiff's attorneys did.
What experience, qualifications, and departments do you have/ have been with? If you have any knowledge or law enforcement experience then you know that a civilian can protect themselves from illegal arrests and would/ will be cleared of wrong doing. Hate to call you out, but that's first day knowledge in the justice world.
2
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:52 pm to RocketDawg
If you have to explain any of this to someone, they need to do some self serving research. If you have to explain this to a lawyer, do not waste your time. Maybe they stayed at a Holdiay Inn Express one time or their next visit to the law library at the penitentiary will be a little more productive.
ETA: For those wondering about tasers, a lot of departments don't have them. A lot only have one per shift and have to call the officer holding one to come to their location. A baton won't stop someone hyped up like many of you believe (i.e. Rodney King was hit so many times it was funny and still kept getting up), and pepper spray usually makes an agitated, deranged person more agitated and uncooperative.
ETA: For those wondering about tasers, a lot of departments don't have them. A lot only have one per shift and have to call the officer holding one to come to their location. A baton won't stop someone hyped up like many of you believe (i.e. Rodney King was hit so many times it was funny and still kept getting up), and pepper spray usually makes an agitated, deranged person more agitated and uncooperative.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 8:04 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 8:27 pm to ugastreaker
quote:
enforcement experience then you know that a civilian can protect themselves from illegal arrests and would/ will be cleared of wrong doing. Hate to call you out, but that's first day knowledge in the justice world.
I was in Lee County Alabama (lake Harding)working on my deceased brother's house along with my other Brother
and his wife and 4 men came out of the woods with AR-15's drawn and absolutely nothing to identify themselves as LEO's were wearing black swat uniforms.
They just yelled as us to show us ID's and said nothing else to identify themselves as LE.I can assure you if I had a weapon or reached for my cell phone (which I almost did) they would have killed me on the spot.
They later explained that girl in lockup had identified that area as a place where her crackhead
Boyfriend was breaking into lakehomes.So naturally when
those brilliant men of the LCSO got a report of a house with a ladder out front they naturally assummed
we were breaking in.So instead of just riding up in an SO car and asking what were doing and actually identifying themselves they set up a freaking mobile command post down the road and deployed the SWAT group through the woods. ALL THIS on the word of a crackhead's girlfriend who was trying to get out of some jailtime.
Not making up one part of this story and I do business with several LE agencies in Metro Atl.
Guess they missed the first day justice class.
This post was edited on 9/22/17 at 5:56 am
Posted on 9/21/17 at 8:55 pm to RD Dawg
I guess reading posts isn't your forte as the post you quoted was directed and replied to FaCubeItches. I'll be the first to say there are shitty, unqualified, lazy, dumb, dirty, corrupt, piece of shite police officers but the overwhelming, vast majority are good officers.
The post you quoted was answering a question that FaCubeIntches asked about someone protecting themselves from the police in the instance of an illegal arrest, which the law says a civilian can do. However, that usually doesn't end well, but the law does allow it.
ETA: I was agreeing with your response minus the Tenn. vs. Garner "spells it all out", as that case law pertains to deadly force and a fleeing felon, which is different than an approaching subject with a weapon. Just my .02 cents worth.
The post you quoted was answering a question that FaCubeIntches asked about someone protecting themselves from the police in the instance of an illegal arrest, which the law says a civilian can do. However, that usually doesn't end well, but the law does allow it.
ETA: I was agreeing with your response minus the Tenn. vs. Garner "spells it all out", as that case law pertains to deadly force and a fleeing felon, which is different than an approaching subject with a weapon. Just my .02 cents worth.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 9:07 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:14 pm to ugastreaker
quote:
guess reading posts isn't your forte as the post you quoted was directed and replied to FaCubeItches
Sure but I didn't take out of context and what stated
was in regards to person protecting themselves in the case of LE after the wrong person identified or illegal arrest.I did make the assumption that also included making a mistake in searching the wrong residence.
quote:
'll be the first to say there are shitty, unqualified, lazy, dumb, dirty, corrupt, piece of shite police officers but the overwhelming, vast majority are good officers.
Completely agree and when I relayed my experience to the LE folks I know they were pretty disgusted but they had also heard some bad stories of that particular SO.My biggest issue with them was the procedures used and the absolute lack of common sense by the command on scene.Not only put us in danger but his men as well.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 9:22 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:31 pm to RD Dawg
Hey, I agree that a lot of LEO are undertrained and understaffed, which is a shitty combination. I can also say I've been in that position, working with those folks and trying to make chicken salad outta chicken shite. An investigative "stop" vs an "arrest" are different though and given the circumstances you gave, if they had tried to arrest you, you would have been justified to resist and use as much force necessary. However, it sounds like you were outgunned and would probably have been shot. If arrest was taking place, you could've/ would've been dead, but you would have been right in resisting and your family would have received a settlement and the comfort of knowing you were right. IMO, it's best to comply and get a lawyer and fight the fight in a courtroom.
However, that's a very different situation than what happened at GT.
I also have an issue if someone says they are a lawyer or work with law enforcement and do not know that a civilian can use force to resist an illegal arrest or they know departments that are teaching and encouraging ESCALATION tactics on civilians. The GBI would love to talk to FaCubeItches, as I know they love to bust dirty cops more than anything. I just can believe someone with so much knowledge of wrongdoing, who works with law enforcement, had sat back and allow it to happen. That makes them apart of the problem.
However, that's a very different situation than what happened at GT.
I also have an issue if someone says they are a lawyer or work with law enforcement and do not know that a civilian can use force to resist an illegal arrest or they know departments that are teaching and encouraging ESCALATION tactics on civilians. The GBI would love to talk to FaCubeItches, as I know they love to bust dirty cops more than anything. I just can believe someone with so much knowledge of wrongdoing, who works with law enforcement, had sat back and allow it to happen. That makes them apart of the problem.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:43 pm to baconwaffle
quote:. This shows you have no clue what you are talking about. 1) Taser fail at a rate of more than 50% on moving targets, the reason is two probes must connect to be effective and clothing gets in the way many times. shite the wind even has a direct affect in the deployment. Again this is a form of less than lethal and is not recommended for deadly force situations. I bet a man with a knife comes at you and FAILS to stop when you tell him to and your tune will change.
Last I checked, taser beats knife 10 times out of 10. And also context. Different scenarios require different responses. Compare, e.g., a muscular adult male charging full speed to the present case: an overweight, slow-moving transgender student.
quote:that is not absurd and is most definitely part of the equation that must be considered. If the cops says stop and get on the ground and the person does we aren't even having this conversation and it is referred in the use of force continuum. Look it up!
Does refusing to abide by a command give an officer justification to kill someone? That's an absurd proposition.
quote:
This argument makes no sense. The ruling in the case to which you refer made the use of tasers more restrictive, yes. However, it does not follow that the use of ballistic firearms therefore remains less restrictive than the use of tasers, since they are deadly and all. Also, Georgia is in the 11th Circuit, and not the 4th Circuit...
Hey I understand GA and the 4th circuit are in different judicial districts but I'm sure that you will agree that I posted there has been no word on the subject matter from SCOTUS and regardless of judicial district courts very OFTEN cite rulings from court cases all across the land. This ruling has and will continue to have an affect on use of force situations. Many officers in these states are not carrying a Taser because my the reasonableness standard has been removed. Most departments leave it up to the officer on what they carrry. Please read and think before speaking!
quote:
This argument makes no sense. However, it does not follow that the use of ballistic firearms therefore remains less restrictive than the use of tasers, since they are deadly and all
ok, let me try to make this simple so you can understand it. My original response was to the question of why was he was not Tased instead of being shot. I attempted to explain that the use of Tasers have been restricted since they were introduced to LE. Regardless, of the restrictive nature today no police officer with a lick of sense should be confronting lethal force with non lethal force. If that makes no sense to you then there's no hope for you. I never implied the use of firearms were either more or less restrictive than Tasers. There is clear language on when a firearm is allowed to be used and ironically it too falls back in many ways to what a reasonable officer would do in the same situation, which is exactly what was taken away in the use of Tasers! That being reasonable standard.
Also your department is no different in that their policies are subject to open records request so send me the name and I'll get the records since you don't really seem as though you know what is going on.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 10:23 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:52 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
em????? Oh and please give make an example where a suspect was tased and subsequently "fell" on a knife causing death or injury.
Man falls on knife
You're a fricking idiot that I will only thank for your service in the Army because the shite you've posted here is a complete embarrassment to the department you claim to work for. My cousin is on the force in Rome and I hope you do not work anywhere near there. If you do and they need backup please turn and go the other way. And yes they will be sued for killing this guy but at least they will be around to see the end result and that is what matters most.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 10:11 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:53 pm to RocketDawg
Now you are talking and doing exactly what I intended to do to FaCubeItches. I want to know department and/or officer names. Open record requests tend to tell it all.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 9:54 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 9:58 pm to RocketDawg
You're a fricking idiot that I will only thank for your service in the Army because the shite you've posted here is a complete embarrassment to the department you claim to work for
Wow,never claimed to work in LE but respect most that do.
Hey,link is not working but will step if that really happened.Good luck with your career and don't plan on going to Rome anytime soon.
Sorry,searched the interwebs and found only 2 instances
Of blade injuries after a taser and one had a crossbow aND only 1 was in the US.I searched the Rome,GA incident and nothing came up.
Wow,never claimed to work in LE but respect most that do.
Hey,link is not working but will step if that really happened.Good luck with your career and don't plan on going to Rome anytime soon.
Sorry,searched the interwebs and found only 2 instances
Of blade injuries after a taser and one had a crossbow aND only 1 was in the US.I searched the Rome,GA incident and nothing came up.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 10:07 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:08 pm to RD Dawg
RD Dawg please accept my apologies as my comments were meant for baconwaffle but I'm using a new iPad and fat fingered it on the reply for the quote listed.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:10 pm to RD Dawg
The incident didn't occur in Rome, my cousin works there and I'd prefer that they get backup from folks that understand you meet deadly force with deadly force and in my opinion it should be overwhelming deadly force.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:11 pm to RocketDawg
No problem
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:38 pm to RD Dawg
We live in a time where people who want to end their lives can do so by threatening police officers to the point that they get the police to shoot them, as they were too much of a coward to do it themselves... and the net result of a sad case of a clearly smart dude with clear mental issues will be that there needs to be more rights for people who are so fricked in the head that they are not even sure what sex or sexuality they are.... because that is what is important ... and if you don't conform to their demands to validate their issues... then you are bad. It's not good enough to just let them be in their own sickness... it's not good enough to let them be free to live their life and suffer the consequences of their own choices... no... you have to conform to their requirements. If you don't... you are intolerant.
You, know... if you want to be a girl... be a girl.. if you want to suck a cock.. suck it... if you want to vilify me because I have no idea who or what the frick you are trying to be, that sounds like your problem... not mine. There are consequences. If you suck a cock, you may get a load of cum in your mouth. If you pretend to be armed and threaten somomne who is armed, you may well get shot.
You, know... if you want to be a girl... be a girl.. if you want to suck a cock.. suck it... if you want to vilify me because I have no idea who or what the frick you are trying to be, that sounds like your problem... not mine. There are consequences. If you suck a cock, you may get a load of cum in your mouth. If you pretend to be armed and threaten somomne who is armed, you may well get shot.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:49 pm to Peter Buck
It baited the police and described himself and said he was armed with a knife and possible gun, per media outlets. He knew what he was doing. What kills me is his parents want to blame the police for not catering or using less lethal means, meanwhile in the same breath say it tried to commit suicide a couple years ago and battled depression and anxiety. Maybe everyone should blame them for not having his arse committed. Why isn't it their fault for not seeking out the help he needed when they knew he had mental issues. Why isn't it their fault for releasing someone with those issues out into the public for someone else to deal with. Instead, it's the police officers fault for playing the cards he dealt. frick it and his sorry arse parents.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 10:59 pm to ugastreaker
quote:
. Why isn't it their fault for not seeking out the help he needed when they knew he had mental issues. Why isn't it their fault for releasing someone with those issues out into the public for someone else to deal with. Instead, it's the police officers fault for playing the cards he dealt. frick it and his sorry arse parents.
Kid was ticking time bomb and parents didn't seem to acknowledge it because of academic success and social status.They bear the brunt of most of what happened
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 11:03 pm
Posted on 9/21/17 at 11:36 pm to RD Dawg
Did he suck cock or was he a male lesbian? Did he do the scissors thingy? The world continues to be more confusing.
Posted on 9/22/17 at 12:11 am to Peter Buck
He had a cock and liked the cock. Pretty sure no heterosexual man has ever woke up and wanted a cock. He was a fig. A crazy, suicidal fig.
Posted on 9/22/17 at 1:28 am to baconwaffle
quote:
Last I checked, taser beats knife 10 times out of 10.
Assuming it hits, likely true. However, there have been instances of people shrugging off taser hits like spitballs, so there is a margin of error there.
Anyone well-trained with a baton should have a significant advantage, too.
If there's time to deploy them, bean-bag/rubber rounds are pretty effective at dropping (or even disarming, if the shooter is good enough) people.
Posted on 9/22/17 at 1:37 am to ugastreaker
"If you have any knowledge or law enforcement experience then you know that a civilian can protect themselves from illegal arrests and would/ will be cleared of wrong doing."
Maybe - assuming they survive the encounter. A raid on a house, for example, involves multiple officers - if you think the guys coming through the door behind the one you dropped aren't going to Sonny Corleone At The Tollbooth you, you're nuts. They're not going to stop, ask someone to make sure they're at the right house, and then apologize for forcing you to kill one of them.
That's ok - you're not, by a wide, wide margin.
In a purely academic discussion, maybe. In the real world of real consequences, no.
Maybe - assuming they survive the encounter. A raid on a house, for example, involves multiple officers - if you think the guys coming through the door behind the one you dropped aren't going to Sonny Corleone At The Tollbooth you, you're nuts. They're not going to stop, ask someone to make sure they're at the right house, and then apologize for forcing you to kill one of them.
quote:
Hate to call you out,
That's ok - you're not, by a wide, wide margin.
quote:
but that's first day knowledge in the justice world.
In a purely academic discussion, maybe. In the real world of real consequences, no.
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