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re: TOT: Tech students riot and burn police car
Posted on 9/20/17 at 12:43 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 9/20/17 at 12:43 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The threshold should always be fear of death or serious bodily harm.
Realistically, it probably needs to be higher. "I was afraid he'd kill/hurt me" is an awkward standard, but it works well enough for civilians, especially given that the shooting would be investigated by a neutral third party, and that DAs have no problem prosecuting normal folks. Given the reluctance that DAs have towards prosecuting police, and the fact that the same department the shooter works for will be investigating the shooting, the standard should be elevated.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 4:43 pm to SquatchDawg
It's not leeway dumbass. I don't see why you and some of the others can't seem to understand that lethal force gets met with lethal force. You don't pepper spray, Taser or use a fricking baton (all forms of less than lethal) on somebody with a weapon that can kill you! That is asking people to do entirely too much in way too short of a time period.
These shootings have enraged the public and I ask why? They have had trials by jury and trials by a judge all with the same result. Not guilty. In one of the cases the (rough ride) case the judge dismissed most of the charges and admonished the DA and last I heard she was fighting to keep her law license and stay out of jail. Cases get dismissed because they are weak and shouldn't have been brought forward in the first place.
Don't get me wrong the police are not perfect and I'm sure they have their fair share of bad apples but most of the shite is media driven as they look for ratings!
These shootings have enraged the public and I ask why? They have had trials by jury and trials by a judge all with the same result. Not guilty. In one of the cases the (rough ride) case the judge dismissed most of the charges and admonished the DA and last I heard she was fighting to keep her law license and stay out of jail. Cases get dismissed because they are weak and shouldn't have been brought forward in the first place.
Don't get me wrong the police are not perfect and I'm sure they have their fair share of bad apples but most of the shite is media driven as they look for ratings!
Posted on 9/20/17 at 4:54 pm to RocketDawg
quote:
lethal force gets met with lethal force.
So if officers (who are carrying guns) attempt an improper arrest, or raid the wrong house, then they can be freely killed?
Having had to defend some use-of-force cases, the departments I had to work with had policies of *escalation*, not de-escalation. That's not always the best idea - by a long shot. There are certainly times where de-escalation isn't possible, but a policy of always escalating is just flat-out stupid. Even if the officer isn't charged or convicted, in an awful lot of those types of cases, the taxpayers are going to get shithammered with a very large civil verdict.
I should note, I've had one case where the department's firearms instructor's statement to people in training was "If you can explain your way out of it, it's a good shoot." Juries fricking *LOVED* that statement - maybe even more than the plaintiff's attorneys did.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 5:17 pm to FaCubeItches
If the police screw up they should pay and in some instances it will cost money and in others it will cost the officer time in jail. That surely is understood by most I believe but assuming that an officer should first attempt to deesculate a situation, have knowledge prior to going into a situation that someone is mentally ill or impaired on drugs is simply stupid.
If you carry a knife to a gun fight you are most likely gonna lose! Police officers for the most part are high school educated or GED, they make split second decisions that many times are at night with low visibility and under extreme stress that can and sometimes are bad decisions. For years the public has understood this as a price of doing business.
If you want the type of situation you are explaining here then you and the public had best be prepared to spend a shite load of money to find the person that is willing to do what they do with the NEW expectations of being right, being training to automatically know and recognize mentally challenged persons all while being stalked with a knife regardless of the kind or type of knife.
The firearms instructor you spoke of would not be the first dumbass to make a comment like that, I assure you! Someone in his department should have handled that situation. Deesculation seems to be the new magic bullet, so just go to YouTube and look up people on flacka, meth or bath salts and then come back and tell me how you are gonna deesculate that.
I see where you are trying to go but using this case is senseless to me! This guy was hell bent on checking out and the real shame is he did by the police because he was too much of a pussy to do it himself. The officer will most likely never be the same. I'd buy him a steak dinner and a beer if you can link me up with him. Hell I'd even invite you to come too.
If you carry a knife to a gun fight you are most likely gonna lose! Police officers for the most part are high school educated or GED, they make split second decisions that many times are at night with low visibility and under extreme stress that can and sometimes are bad decisions. For years the public has understood this as a price of doing business.
If you want the type of situation you are explaining here then you and the public had best be prepared to spend a shite load of money to find the person that is willing to do what they do with the NEW expectations of being right, being training to automatically know and recognize mentally challenged persons all while being stalked with a knife regardless of the kind or type of knife.
The firearms instructor you spoke of would not be the first dumbass to make a comment like that, I assure you! Someone in his department should have handled that situation. Deesculation seems to be the new magic bullet, so just go to YouTube and look up people on flacka, meth or bath salts and then come back and tell me how you are gonna deesculate that.
I see where you are trying to go but using this case is senseless to me! This guy was hell bent on checking out and the real shame is he did by the police because he was too much of a pussy to do it himself. The officer will most likely never be the same. I'd buy him a steak dinner and a beer if you can link me up with him. Hell I'd even invite you to come too.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 5:20 pm to FaCubeItches
quote:, yes in theory they can but most of those cases go really bad and result in those civil judgements you spoke of. See Ruby Ridge among others. They have a tough job and minus pure corruption I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt.
So if officers (who are carrying guns) attempt an improper arrest, or raid the wrong house, then they can be freely killed?
Posted on 9/20/17 at 5:26 pm to FaCubeItches
quote:so you are a lawyer. Deesculation stops when deadly force is imminent and someone refusing orders with a deadly weapon presents an imminent threat of serious bodily harm and or death. Tenn. versus Garner spells it all out and is the basis for the stupid comments of the firearms instructor. He was stupid in saying it the way that he did but is correct in the context of what he said. Once deadly force is deployed next comes the explanation of the Who, what, when, where and WHY. Am I right?
Having had to defend some use-of-force cases, the departments I had to work with had policies of *escalation*, not de-escalation. That's not always the best idea - by a long shot. There are certainly times where de-escalation isn't possible, but a policy of always escalating is just flat-out stupid
Posted on 9/20/17 at 7:02 pm to RocketDawg
quote:
Deesculation stops when deadly force is imminent and someone refusing orders with a deadly weapon presents an imminent threat of serious bodily harm and or death.
Sort of, but it is still dependent upon the situation. The classic example is the no-knock entry on the wrong house. The homeowner comes out with a gun, only knowing that his door just got kicked in. Entry team escalates and shoots him - he's armed, etc. BIG PROBLEM: their entry was improper, and quite possibly illegal.
Another prime problem - "dynamic entry" stuff usually happens at night while people are asleep - so they tend to be disoriented and confused, doubly so when they are being blinded with lights. Escalation here is stupid - it creates the situation which will lead to a shooting.
Finally, you get the person with *something* in his hand, maybe a wallet, maybe keys, maybe a gun, but something. Multiple officers start yelling commands - usually conflicting commands. Person - especially if he's an innocent, is surprised and confused, and may even be complying with one officer's commands. Well, he's got something in his hand and he isn't following *my* commands, so now I have to escalate. *blam* Time to break out the checkbook.....
Again, there are certainly times where escalation is necessary. However, to have a policy of *always* escalating is stupid and reckless.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 7:40 pm to RocketDawg
Why are you so angry? You come on here and throw up walls of text just because some of us question whether it was excessive force to shoot and kill this person? Isn't that a valid question given the circumstances?
By all accounts the individual was walking slowly asking to be shot. I don't know what distances were involved and it probably was a clean shot but still worth the question of whether it was justified. This person obviously had issues.
LE has a monopoly of force and the authority to detain, question, arrest and potentially shoot citizens. This is a big deal and they're given extensive training in how to manage these situations. They should be held to a higher standard. I've known a few state and federal LE officers and are comfortable that they would agree.
By all accounts the individual was walking slowly asking to be shot. I don't know what distances were involved and it probably was a clean shot but still worth the question of whether it was justified. This person obviously had issues.
LE has a monopoly of force and the authority to detain, question, arrest and potentially shoot citizens. This is a big deal and they're given extensive training in how to manage these situations. They should be held to a higher standard. I've known a few state and federal LE officers and are comfortable that they would agree.
This post was edited on 9/20/17 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 9/20/17 at 8:27 pm to SquatchDawg
So you can tell from a post I'm angry? I'm sick of idiots commenting on shite they know nothing about. You by your own admission know little about this situation but yet you have this big opinion and wanted to share it, now you're defensive, that at least from what I've read here, most disagree with you.
I equate it to those who have never done one thing for this country yet feel as though their rights supersede the rights of others. The right to be free yet bad mouth the government at every turn. Do you think this ANTIFA bunch have ever made one positive contribution to this country being able to be free?
shite travel to foreign countries, get off the beaten tourist path and see what awaits you. You sound like that snot nosed American kid that got his arse canned oversees then came back home whining and crying to every news agency that would listen. The police have individual responsibility to you or anybody to save your arse from being stupid and if you act stupid with a deadly weapon you'll most likely end up like this idiot. Should I end up on the jury there is no way in hell on a case like this that I would hold any officer accountable for doing what needed to be done.
Here is the video from the most liberal news agency around so watch it and then see how you feel about it.
LINK
I equate it to those who have never done one thing for this country yet feel as though their rights supersede the rights of others. The right to be free yet bad mouth the government at every turn. Do you think this ANTIFA bunch have ever made one positive contribution to this country being able to be free?
shite travel to foreign countries, get off the beaten tourist path and see what awaits you. You sound like that snot nosed American kid that got his arse canned oversees then came back home whining and crying to every news agency that would listen. The police have individual responsibility to you or anybody to save your arse from being stupid and if you act stupid with a deadly weapon you'll most likely end up like this idiot. Should I end up on the jury there is no way in hell on a case like this that I would hold any officer accountable for doing what needed to be done.
Here is the video from the most liberal news agency around so watch it and then see how you feel about it.
LINK
Posted on 9/20/17 at 8:37 pm to FaCubeItches
As I said no one even the police are perfect and things as you've described here have and will happen again. It is tragic, it happens very rarely compared to the numbers on times when a door is kicked in and it is the right home. When it happens it should be righted through the proper channels.
I will say it this way right now all over this country police departments run by more liberal chiefs are going to no chase policies over citizen concerns resulting from collisions and death or serious injuries from collisions even thought SOTUS has yet to hold any of the accountable due to the nature of what is expected from them.
Now just sit back and watch and see how long it takes before that changes. I just read an article last week that if I can find it, I'l post it, showing one police department already changing their policy just a few short years after changing it because everyone runs now and even more deaths occurred.
I'm not saying there should be no accountability for the police but in THIS case and many of the others the media is reporting this in such a way that it is barely legit. For instance research articles on George Zimmerman and see how many times that idiot is referred to as an officer when in reality all he ever was is a security officer. In the link I posted notice the title of the story. It is factually correct but is not presented in a light anywhere near what the video shows nor favorably towards those officers.
Just my opinion
I will say it this way right now all over this country police departments run by more liberal chiefs are going to no chase policies over citizen concerns resulting from collisions and death or serious injuries from collisions even thought SOTUS has yet to hold any of the accountable due to the nature of what is expected from them.
Now just sit back and watch and see how long it takes before that changes. I just read an article last week that if I can find it, I'l post it, showing one police department already changing their policy just a few short years after changing it because everyone runs now and even more deaths occurred.
I'm not saying there should be no accountability for the police but in THIS case and many of the others the media is reporting this in such a way that it is barely legit. For instance research articles on George Zimmerman and see how many times that idiot is referred to as an officer when in reality all he ever was is a security officer. In the link I posted notice the title of the story. It is factually correct but is not presented in a light anywhere near what the video shows nor favorably towards those officers.
Just my opinion
Posted on 9/20/17 at 8:43 pm to FaCubeItches
quote:I never said always, and without going back and rereading what I think I said was deadly force will always be met with deadly force. In that scenario I'm speaking of a person with a weapon i.e. Knife, gun or rifle and assumed it was understood given the situation we are speaking of. Life is not Hollywood and these officers aren't gonna save the day and everybody go home like nothing happened.
Again, there are certainly times where escalation is necessary. However, to have a policy of *always* escalating is stupid and reckless.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:28 pm to RocketDawg
quote:
I'm sick of idiots commenting on shite they know nothing about
My comment was that it seemed excessive to kill a kid who was suicidal that was armed with a multi tool.
quote:
equate it to those who have never done one thing for this country yet feel as though their rights supersede the rights of others.
You're projecting - how does this situation supersede anyone else's rights? Random.
quote:
you think this ANTIFA bunch have ever made one positive contribution to this country
What the frick does Antifa have to do with this?
quote:
You sound like that snot nosed American kid that got his arse canned oversees then came back home whining and crying to every news agency that would listen.
If you're in a foreign country you don't have the benefit if due process and are subject to their legal system. You need to watch your arse because in authoritarian countries you have no rights. But to your point - should they have shot this kid? What about that kid in N Korea - did he have it coming too?
Yeah ...you seem angry. I don't know what issues you have but if you don't at least question the motive of the cops that gun people down in the streets you're no better than the people that looked the other way when the brown shirts hauled off their neighbors.
Question - if the perp was unarmed and was still moving on the cop was the shooting justified?
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:34 pm to dcbl
No reason why the cops couldn't have tased the kid from the get-go. While I do not think that these cops should be prosecuted, their training is piss-poor, which seems to be an increasing theme across the country these days. The explanation is simple. Pay cuts push away the smarter, more restrained, and better qualified individuals from serving in local and state law enforcement.
I am an Army veteran, and I currently work in law enforcement, and this would never have happened in my organization. Being a LEO requires you to assume a degree of physical harm. You can't serve and protect the public if your first instinct is to pull the trigger on the public, even if a member of the public is committing a crime. That's what the court system is for.
If the student were rushing the officers, that's one thing. But the student wasn't. After seeing pictures of this student, these officers are (presumeably) faster, stronger, and more physically fit. Just a sad situation all around.
I am an Army veteran, and I currently work in law enforcement, and this would never have happened in my organization. Being a LEO requires you to assume a degree of physical harm. You can't serve and protect the public if your first instinct is to pull the trigger on the public, even if a member of the public is committing a crime. That's what the court system is for.
If the student were rushing the officers, that's one thing. But the student wasn't. After seeing pictures of this student, these officers are (presumeably) faster, stronger, and more physically fit. Just a sad situation all around.
Posted on 9/20/17 at 9:53 pm to baconwaffle
I agree with you on all points.
A few of the LE folks I know are ex-military and despite popular belief they're much more measured and well trained than your average bear. They also don't get rattled or jumpy in a situation because they're used to it.
Our cities are a problem because these folks are walking into war zones where they're hated so it creates a really bad dynamic and has produced this us vs them mentality. All of the BLM stuff is just making it worse.
A few of the LE folks I know are ex-military and despite popular belief they're much more measured and well trained than your average bear. They also don't get rattled or jumpy in a situation because they're used to it.
Our cities are a problem because these folks are walking into war zones where they're hated so it creates a really bad dynamic and has produced this us vs them mentality. All of the BLM stuff is just making it worse.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:29 am to SquatchDawg
We just are not going to see eye to eye on this topic. Many members of my family have been in law enforcement and I have many friends in the field now and to say they should save the day without meeting force on force is simply ludicrous in my book. Use of force doctrine across the nations lays the ground rules for what is acceptable and that is what these officers will go by. Not your and my opinions.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:45 am to baconwaffle
quote:so are you an officer or in a support roll? I agree officers by nature of their work place themselves in danger and must accept that but it in no way means that they should be stupid by trying to tase a person wielding a knife. Please post your departments use of force policy that show the threat assessment for this type of situation and the proper response.
I am an Army veteran, and I currently work in law enforcement, and this would never have happened in my organization. Being a LEO requires you to assume a degree of physical harm. You can't serve and protect the public if your first instinct is to pull the trigger on the public, even if a member of the public is committing a crime. That's what the court system is for.
From what I saw these officers didn't have a shoot first mentality. I saw repeated commands given, I saw retreat on both officers and based on the change in what appeared to be a female officer I heard deffinant concern which to a reasonable person would indicate fear.
There is definitely a reason the kid could not have been Tased from the get go as you state. The SCOTUS has yet to take up the 4th circuits ruling on Taser use in which they took away the reasonable standard and instead set guidelines on Taser use. To put it simply, just holding a weapon would not fall under the criteria as I have read. I submit this to your point on Tasing him from the get go and stick to my stance that when he began advancing on the officers, with a weapon and failed to follow orders non-lethal force at that point was taken off the table. If they Tased him for holding a weapon and making not imminent threat and he fell on the knife causing death or injury they then would been sued civilly and that is where we are in this country.
This post was edited on 9/21/17 at 7:50 am
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:13 pm to RocketDawg
quote:
in no way means that they should be stupid by trying to tase a person wielding a knife
Last I checked, taser beats knife 10 times out of 10. And also context. Different scenarios require different responses. Compare, e.g., a muscular adult male charging full speed to the present case: an overweight, slow-moving transgender student.
quote:
I saw repeated commands given
Does refusing to abide by a command give an officer justification to kill someone? That's an absurd proposition.
quote:
The SCOTUS has yet to take up the 4th circuits ruling on Taser use in which they took away the reasonable standard and instead set guidelines on Taser use
This argument makes no sense. The ruling in the case to which you refer made the use of tasers more restrictive, yes. However, it does not follow that the use of ballistic firearms therefore remains less restrictive than the use of tasers, since they are deadly and all. Also, Georgia is in the 11th Circuit, and not the 4th Circuit...
As for me, my employer discourages publicly talking about our occupation specifics. But I can guarantee you that blowing away a slow-moving, drug-addled person brandishing a pocket knife would be frowned upon.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:22 pm to RocketDawg
quote:
they Tased him for holding a weapon and making not imminent threat and he fell on the knife causing death or injury they then would been sued civilly and that is where we are in this country.
And you don't think they're gonna get sued for killing
em?????
Oh and please give make an example where a suspect was
tased and subsequently "fell" on a knife causing death or injury.
Posted on 9/21/17 at 7:37 pm to RocketDawg
quote:
Deesculation seems to be the new magic bullet, so just go to YouTube and look up people on flacka, meth or bath salts and then come back and tell me how you are gonna deesculate that.
I see where you are trying to go but using this case is senseless to me! This guy was hell bent on checking out and the real shame is he did by the police because he was too much of a pussy to do it himself. The officer will most likely never be the same
I agree.
People on substances are unpredictable. And some substances make a knife more dangerous than anyone on this board truly knows (except for LEOs ).
There are too many variables to have a black and white understanding of how to handle these situations. It is always a do your best and live with the consequences.
Do people understand that a person who is hellbent on getting killed will do his own escalation until he gets what he wants? Is there a toxicology? Substances and suicidal demands mean that his reckless concern for his own life will not stop at the endangerment of others. There was not any logic, reason, or concern in his mind. That does not mean that he deserves to die. But that means any rules or preconceived notions out on social media right now about the right way and wrong way to handle this are pointless, emotional drivel. They are emotional reactions to a terrible situation and not a reasonable approach to an unreasonable equation.
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