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re: Dan Wolken: if Kirby doesn't win the East in 17, he's a clown
Posted on 2/27/17 at 11:27 am to Crowknowsbest
Posted on 2/27/17 at 11:27 am to Crowknowsbest
quote:
Probably the worst facilities
Stegeman isn't great, but the training facilities are top notch. I disagree that Stegeman is an excuse for failure to win a single game in the tournament and typically outright failing to get in. If you want to say that it's why we don't regularly compete with Kentucky/Duke/UNC for the top 10-15 players, fine... But we're not just one step back from them. We're many. Also, Alabama, Miss St, and several others have pretty shitty venues as well.
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basically zero atmosphere
Not sure where this is coming from... it's about on par with other places when the competition is good, and plenty of other SEC programs have less than ideal crowds for games against bottom dweller 200+ RPI programs.
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inconsistent fan support
This is accurate, but again a reflection of the brand of basketball that we play. For big games, the fans show up... then they get let down... it's a shitty self fulfilling prophecy, but the best way to get consistent fan support is to put a consistently quality product on the floor. Fox has taken the team as far as he can in my opinion (and others), and yet 8 years later there are people willing to give him a pass but feel that it's win or gtfo for Kirby in year 2... Just calling a spade a spade.
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no tangible demonstration of a real desire to improve
Not sure what a tangible demonstration would be other than actually stating that regularly missing the tournament is unacceptable and holding a coach accountable.
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Basketball players typically don't care about staying in state
This doesn't seem to be the case for players in Kansas, Indiana, North Carolina, etc... why does it only apply to players from the state of Georgia? It doesn't have to just be in state either... regional is big. Villanova is just a little outside Philly. Their roster is made up primarily of guys from Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey/New York - all bordering states. Butler is more than 50% Indiana/Ohio guys. Baylor's roster is half TX players, then expanding into OK, MO, and LA gets you to 75%. Gonzaga has a good number of guys from the NW (Oregon, Washington, BC) and further still most guys are from "out west" whether it's CA, CO, Montana... basketball recruiting is regional. So yes, being on the doorstep of the ACC is problematic, it is the same for Auburn, Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, etc... all teams that are at present trending more positively than UGA.
This post was edited on 2/27/17 at 11:32 am
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Posted on 2/27/17 at 11:29 am to Peter Buck
quote:
Our SOS is 20th in the country. How the frick is that soft again?
If our barometer is in conference success, then national SOS doesn't actually matter. If we're judging Smart based on whether he can win the East, then it's relative to other teams in the SEC. We have the 6th SOS in the SEC...
Posted on 2/27/17 at 11:40 am to DawgCountry
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quote:
in regards to basketball, it most definitely is
How? Practice facility and a face lift of the colesium have happened.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 11:51 am to fibonaccisquared
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Stegeman isn't great, but the training facilities are top notch.
The training facilities are what you'd expect for a power 5 school. Stegeman is not a suitable venue for a major college basketball team.
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Not sure where this is coming from... it's about on par with other places when the competition is good, and plenty of other SEC programs have less than ideal crowds for games against bottom dweller 200+ RPI programs.
... and those other SEC programs suck on the national scale. Why would they be the metric?
quote:
it's a shitty self fulfilling prophecy, but the best way to get consistent fan support is to put a consistently quality product on the floor.
The classic chicken and egg problem. Fans will show up when the team is good, but you can't have a good team without good players, and it's hard to get good players to play in an out-dated and empty arena.
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Not sure what a tangible demonstration would be other than actually stating that regularly missing the tournament is unacceptable and holding a coach accountable.
Maybe don't play in the worst major college venue in the region. That would be a start.
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This doesn't seem to be the case for players in Kansas, Indiana, North Carolina, etc... why does it only apply to players from the state of Georgia?
Those states have blue blood programs in them. Those schools keep players home because 1) they can get anyone from anywhere and 2) the local kids are indoctrinated in a culture of basketball madness from the time they are little kids. Basketball is bigger than football in those places. It's not even a reasonable comparison.
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Villanova is just a little outside Philly. Their roster is made up primarily of guys from Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey/New York - all bordering states. Butler is more than 50% Indiana/Ohio guys. Baylor's roster is half TX players, then expanding into OK, MO, and LA gets you to 75%. Gonzaga has a good number of guys from the NW (Oregon, Washington, BC) and further still most guys are from "out west" whether it's CA, CO, Montana...
All of those are better and more attractive programs than UGA.
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basketball recruiting is regional.
Indeed, which is why UGA needs to go above and beyond where they are commitment-wise to have a good shot at improving. That, or they could cheat.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 1:49 pm to Crowknowsbest
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Stegeman is not a suitable venue for a major college basketball team.
So dumb.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 1:51 pm to Crowknowsbest
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you can't have a good team without good players
Harrick and tubby won and then the fans showed up. Takes a really good coach to do that. We know fox isn't that guy. We need to find an improvement.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 2:01 pm to djsdawg
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So dumb.
It's suitable in the sense that there is a basketball court and seats for fans inside it.
Is it a place where a major basketball program with high aspirations would want to present its product to the world? Hardly. It has a huge mural of a gymnast inside it, and that was seen as an improvement. No offense to gymnastics, but I doubt you'll find another D1 college basketball venue where that's the case.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 2:12 pm to Crowknowsbest
Yes, it was a great spot to watch a game before the facelift made it look more appealing from the outside and in the concourses.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 3:36 pm to Crowknowsbest
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Stegeman is not a suitable venue for a major college basketball team.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see something done more than the facelift that it saw, but I don't agree that it's an excuse for not making the tournament. Again, we're not holding ourselves to the standard of top 25 "major CBB team", we're trying to make the tournament consistently. You start doing that, and you give yourself more opportunities to win a round. 64(+4) > 32... Do that and you build your brand - both with recruits and with fans...
quote:
... and those other SEC programs suck on the national scale. Why would they be the metric?
The original point of this thread was using the conference as a measuring stick. Again, we're not performing at a top 25 level in basketball, we're trying to make the tournament. We just need to be a top 4 program in the SEC in order to consistently make the tournament most years. Other than UK and probably UF, I'm not sold that our atmosphere/fan support is significantly worse than the rest of the SEC. And that's *with* what most would consider a stale HC situation at this point.
As far as the examples I gave, I was simply showing that even for schools that quite literally can pull from anywhere, a good chunk of their roster is made up of guys that are in their region. If you move down the RPI ratings, it's similar in most cases. Basketball actually isn't a sport where teams are *heavily* imbalanced by national recruiting. Pointing out that UGA isn't as attractive a location as say Kansas or Duke isn't exactly earth shattering, but are you saying that excluding head coaching situations that we're significantly worse off than Alabama, South Carolina, or Mississippi State (all of which have better looking recruiting classes at the moment)?
Yes, South Carolina is playing a good brand of basketball now, but prior to this HC hire, they were not any more desirable a place, and they have had the building they're in now since 2002... In that 15 years, they've made the tournament once (2004), of course getting a little screwed last year (with a little help from 3 losses at the hands of the Dawgs) but are on track to likely make it this year. Simply having a good building does not change a program... On top of that, basketball rankings and ratings of recruits are in many ways a little less complete than football. Hell, it only took an average recruiting class ranking of 38 over the last 4 years (excluding this year) for Villanova to have a championship caliber team. And again, we're not even holding our team to championship caliber, you have to start somewhere... making the tournament with some degree of consistency would be a great start, as would maybe winning a round.
All I'm stating is that it's strange that we want to hold Kirby to the standard of "be the best team in the division", which in general will require a 6-2 conference record or better in most seasons, but we aren't holding Fox accountable for anywhere near that level of performance after 8 years here... The "he inherited a mess" excuse is over... at some point you have to face that he is incapable of fielding a team that can compete at a high enough level - even with 2 "all time UGA greats" on the roster or "the best returning player in the SEC" as someone else put it.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 3:38 pm to Crowknowsbest
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Is it a place where a major basketball program with high aspirations would want to present its product to the world? Hardly.
Cameron Indoor Stadium says hello
Posted on 2/27/17 at 3:42 pm to FinleyStreet
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Cameron Indoor Stadium says hello
Posted on 2/27/17 at 3:47 pm to FinleyStreet
lol
Now all we need is a coach K and 5 national championships and we will be set!
you people crack me up
Now all we need is a coach K and 5 national championships and we will be set!
you people crack me up
Posted on 2/27/17 at 3:49 pm to fibonaccisquared
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We just need to be a top 4 program in the SEC in order to consistently make the tournament most years.
What has been UGA's finish in the conference over the last four years, I wonder?
Posted on 2/27/17 at 4:11 pm to K9
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What has been UGA's finish in the conference over the last four years, I wonder?
You're confusing conference record with actual "placement" which is determined as far as the country and the tournament selection committee are concerned as RPI.
2 of the last 3/4 seasons have been a bit of an anomaly in that only 3 SEC schools were selected to the tournament, however, on average, the top 4 schools from the SEC go most years.
I'm going to assume you weren't referring to this season, as we'd be 6th in RPI at present.
We were 4th in RPI from the SEC last year, and thus the case was made that we should have been in, but at the same time we didn't have quality wins to point to. Unsurprisingly, we've had more of the same this year... even with some of the tough losses down the stretch, you don't have much of a resume to point to and make the case that we could win a tournament game again this year.
Obviously we made the tournament in 2015, so let's go back to 2014. 72nd in RPI... behind Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, Arkansas, and LSU...
2013... 143, behind a lot of teams...
So in the last 4 years we've finished top 4 in RPI 2x and made the tournament one of those. And in the other 2, 7th or worse. With this year a likely 6th. This is not the same as consistently being a top 4 team in the conference.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 4:16 pm to K9
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Now all we need is a coach K and 5 national championships and we will be set!
you people crack me up
No... you crack *us* up... No one is holding Fox to 5 national championship standards... They're holding him to the "get to the fricking dance and ideally win a game standard"... Legitimately, most UGA fans would be satisfied with that kind of performance for a bit. And it wouldn't even need to be every year... If we made the tournament every other year on average, and in every other appearance won a round... that would very likely be enough to cement Fox as the coach at UGA for a good while to come.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 4:31 pm to fibonaccisquared
I was making fun of the comparison of our program and Duke's.
"Duke has a shitty arena too and they do all right"
dumb
"Duke has a shitty arena too and they do all right"
dumb
Posted on 2/27/17 at 4:32 pm to Peter Buck
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I honestly don't recall. Did they have fan support ? Before? Did they build? Was this riding on the wave of the football success ?
Florida went to the Final Four in 1994 and the title game in 2000 (I believe Lon Kruger was their HC then), so Donovan didn't quickly build a championship program from scratch. He just took what Kruger had built and ramped it up several levels higher.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 4:33 pm to FinleyStreet
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Cameron Indoor Stadium says hello
Cameron might be small and shitty, but it is also deafeningly loud and iconic.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 4:33 pm to fibonaccisquared
Sorry you didn't specify what metric you were using.
Posted on 2/27/17 at 4:50 pm to K9
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I was making fun of the comparison of our program and Duke's.
Oh, if anyone makes that comparison, I'm right there with you...
We're not in the same league. Doesn't mean we couldn't be at some point in the future, but I'm more than comfortable saying we're not there, and we're not close.
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