re: 5* RB Lorenzo Lingard to Miami

Where did I mention lsu or iowa. Check again. The secondary had nfl talent along with the DL. You're wrong, again. You have to related to Mac

quote:

---

Can you respond with one, maybe two at most instead of scatter firing?

---

The point is to get you to not avoid specific points that prove you wrong like you love to do.

I'm talking about wins and losses. Mac is 19-8 in his first two years. If he wouldn't have gotten to the SECCG, like it appears that TJ would have preferred, Mac would be 19-6. If we would've gotten to play the Presbyterian game like we should have, Mac would be 20-8.

TJ is oblivious to the context of where the program was when he took over and where the program as a whole has come since then. He bitches and moans about stats instead of being a fan and ultimately caring about wins and losses. If you care about wins and losses, Mac has done that more over the course of his first two years than anyone at UF since Meyer in 08/09.

Consider this: we can argue that Florida and Georgia were on equal footing from a roster standpoint when our new coaches took over. And that's true, both offenses had a couple of stand out players but not much talent. Florida's defense was the best group by far, but Georgia had their share of talent on defense. Georgia was coming off of 10-3 seasons in 2014 and 2015. That's 20-6 in the two years before Kirby got there. Every team is different, I know, but does the talent drop off so much that a consistent 10 win team goes from 20-6 in two years to 7-5? Or can you at least say that Kirby has to improve his on field coaching and ability to be the CEO of a team and lead on gamedays. I'm not talking about recruiting, which he's obviously been good at, I'm talking strictly about his teams performance on the field. I don't think Georgia was so talent deficient last year that they should've lost to Vandy, Georgia Tech, or played Nichols state 26-24 or need last second comebacks to beat Missouri or Kentucky. Georgia is better than that and you know it.

Take Georgias on field success and compare that to Florida. In 2013, Florida went 4-8. In 2014, Florida went 7-5. That's 11-13 over the two previous years. And in Mac's first year he turned that into 10-2 with an SECCG appearance, and 9-2 (not including cupcake W against Presbyterian) and a repeat appearance in the SECCG. You can say he used Muschamps players, but how come those same players didn't get Muschamp any better than 4-8 or 7-5 in the two years prior? TJ can bitch all he wants about yards and recruiting (which isn't nearly as bad as he wishes it to be, by the way) but it doesn't change the fact that his teams seem to know how to win. And that's ultimately the goal, right?

You're very angry with facts. It's like an excorsism. The power of Mac compels you

quote:

---

He's 3-7 vs the top 25

---

This is your best argument. This has to improve. I think it can. It's hard to judge a coach early in his tenure on his record vs Top 35 teams. Consider Saban, he was 4-6 in his first two years against the top 25. We know since then that number is much better. I'm not saying Mac is Saban by any means, I'm just saying that what we've seen so far from Mac isn't the end all be all for him. He can improve that record.

quote:

---

He can't recruit Or develop a QB to save his life.

---

How do you know this? He's been here two years, Do you know what development is? It's when a player improves over time. I know you'll turn to Appleby and Del Rio to try to prove that Mac can't develop but you and I both know that those guys were transfers and not guys that Mac had a chance to develop their whole careers. We don't know what Trask or Franks are. Those are Mac's guys. It'll be damning for Mac if neither of those guys are ready this year. You declaring that Mac can't develop a quarterback to save his life is yet another example of you hoping that he can't so it will fit your narrative.

quote:

---

I know exactly where The program was. All he had to do was fix the offense.

---

You act like this was a 10 minute fix. It was a complete stripdown and rebuild. The offensive line has been built from the ground up. The wide receiver core has been reloaded with playmaking wide receivers. We have good running backs. We're decent at tight end. Those guys have finally gotten some experience and are getting a couple of years under their belt. Let's see how they look this year, with some upperclassmen leadership, as opposed to the entire offense's production being from freshmen and sophomores.

quote:

---

Mac hasn't done more he's done the same as WM and worse than Zook.

---

The records say otherwise. You know, the W-L record. The thing that really matters.

quote:

---

I WANT UF TO GET BACK TO THE SOS OR MEYER DAYS

---

That's what all Gator fans want. Why would you give up and fire a coach before he's even had time to put together his roster and make his adjustments for the program?


My entire post was fixated on Mac's success on the field in the context of what the program was when Mac took over. He's done a good job. The expectations are to win championships. He hasn't met the championship expectations yet, but in the context of where the program was when he took over, he has done a hell of a good job to win 10 games. Especially considering he could've been like Kirby and won 7 games. I'll take Mac's results so far over what Kirby has done.

quote:

---

atlgator

---

I'm beginning to think I must have you confused with someone else. Unlike Straws, you're capable of having a rational conversation.

I'll leave TJ out of this, as largely, I just don't care about the bickering between him and Straws... TJ is the prototypical "ne-gator" ("negadawg" in our world). If he dislikes one thing enough, it massively overshadows any positive. I'll grant you that Mac has had more success in terms of Wins/Losses than most would likely expect with the roster that he had. *But*, keep in mind, that as of this moment, that success has primarily been had on the backs of a very talented defense, made up mostly of Will Muschamp recruits. This isn't a commentary on his ability to coach, or even really his ability to recruit, simply that as of right now, most of the defensive production has come from guys that WM brought in. The upside here for the gators, is that in limited roles, it looks like some of the young guys are going to be able to step in and produce, hopefully (or not in my case ) at a similar level.

I would argue that UF's season success is largely measured in 3-4 games:
Georgia, Tennessee, LSU, and Florida State
(Maybe a case could be made for the UK streak... because just damn.)

Obviously, all the other games are important, but if you're winning all of those games consistently, within the current SEC/in-state rivalry ecosystem, most UF fans would probably feel pretty good about a team that could win all 4 of those, since realistically a team that could beat all 4, should at the very least be favored to win most of the rest, with of course the revolving west opponent being the wild card.

2015: 2-2
2016: 2-2

Not bad, not great. On the upside for UF perhaps, in each of those years, 1 of the losses was to FSU, which doesn't hurt SEC standing.

For UGA, a similar case could be made for:
Florida, Auburn, Tennessee, Ga Tech

2016: 1-3

Not great... We were certainly in position to go 3-1 there, with only the UF game never really within grasp (not really dominated, but just looked underwhelming), but the final score is what gets graded.

The games where you're more critical (and rightfully so), Vandy, Tech, and even Nicholls State, in each of those games, had Smart played Greyson Lambert, I think most of us believe that he would have played the game manager role sufficiently to win the game (even if it was ugly), but it would have done nothing for the program going forward. At that point, Kirby had already made the bed of starting the freshman, pulling the carpet out from under him would have been a mistake. Also, with Lambert, you're not in a position to make the drives that we did against Mizzou and Tennessee at the end of the game to put ourselves in a position to win.

The fact that you're comparing 10-3 seasons in 2014 and 2015 (including the bowl game) to the 7-5 season (not including the bowl game) is a bit disingenuous as well. Those were 9-3 regular season teams, both of which had more talent and didn't start a freshman QB. I think 7-5 is underwhelming. Don't get me wrong... It was a weird season though as well. For just as you could point to the Mizzou, Nicholls, or Kentucky game as possible additional losses, you could also point to Tennessee, Vandy, and Ga Tech as games that were quite easily winnable as well. It was a season that lived on a razor's edge... as most would expect with a first year coach, new system, and a freshman QB. If you look back at Richt's last year in the 2015 season alone, Mizzou, Ga Southern, and Ga Tech (less so because they looked awful - but it still ended as a one score game), easily could have been losses. Hell that bowl win was anything but certain once the second half started rolling along. It's a team that had for 2 years prior outperformed its talent a bit on the backs of a pretty easy schedule.

I think there were definitely some rookie coaching mistakes made, but there were also some great decisions made as well. You gotta take the good with the bad, and right now, I'm hoping that Kirby has someone really talking to him about his growth areas going into this year. What can *he* do specifically to help make the team better with decisions on game day. I'm still not sold on Chaney as an OC, but I think we could have done worse as well... I think that between Chaney and Smart, there was an element of stubbornness to try and fit square pegs into round holes. The need to hope that either a) they got round pegs in this recruiting cycle to fit the OL scheme they want to run, or b) they better fricking change schemes, because 2 years of the same issues isn't acceptable.

I'll take a solid, if perhaps uninspired offensive gameplan as long as we're running it with elite recruits, but it's going to take development at the QB, OL, and WR positions. If Eason doesn't take the next step, there won't be much that Smart can do to offset it. If Eason *does* take the next step, but we continue to have troubles with drops at the rate that we do, it's not going to matter. Similarly, if the OL starts the season off like they looked against Mizzou or Nicholls last year, it's going to be a long season for Chubb/Michel (and I will be sad to watch their draft stock fall).

These are my biggest concerns going into next year, and no matter if Smart was Saban himself, it wouldn't change all of those problems overnight. UGA hasn't had a *healthy* truly great WR since AJ Green. Malcolm Mitchell obviously was really talented, but plagued by injuries to start his career at UGA, only to come on strong with one of the worst downfield passing QBs we've ever had in Greyson Lambert. Other than those 2, who else made it in the NFL? Marlon Brown might be the next best statistically with 87 receptions for a little under 900 yards in 3 seasons for the Ravens. He was a little inconsistent at UGA, coming on strongest in his senior season during 2012, with Aaron Murray at QB and all the pieces really coming together. Tavarres King was a favorite target of Aaron Murray and put up some pretty damn good numbers as well, but even still, he's been gone since 2012.

So other than the oft injured Mitchell, WR has been at a pretty big drought over the last few years. UGA recruited 3-4* WRs under Richt, but that really was a position where it seemed either lack of development or poor evaluation (or a combination) in many cases led to some less than ideal performance. Not having experienced receivers to get the ball to for your freshman QB inhibits development... even when he does everything right, it still goes wrong, ultimately failing to reinforce the good behaviors.

With regards to Muschamp's 7-5 season. Idaho game canceled (similar to the Presbyterian in 2016), drew Alabama as rotating west opponent, and the Mizzou and SC teams of 2014 were *significantly* better than the 2015-16 versions that you played. I'm not saying he gets you the same production as Mac, but to chalk it up *just* to Mac's ability as a coach and not a bit of favorable scheduling/timing is again a bit too much "orange and blue glasses" viewpoint. I think the Muschamp hate is a bit harsh and I think the Mac love is a bit too much... To me, they're very similar coaches... Mac having an edge in player development/scheme and Muschamp being the better recruiter... neither are a complete coach IMO, though maybe Mac develops as you envision and it works out... who knows. Right now, Kirby's got the recruiting piece locked down... it's time to prove that the on field decisions/coaching is at the same level... if he's not, then he's not. For Straws to indicate that he's somehow Will Muschamp 2.0 is a bit ludicrous after a single season... it's certainly possible, but there isn't sufficient evidence to draw the conclusion.

To be fair, and this isn't anywhere near the point of your post, I know, but I said 10-2 and 9-3 in my previous posts, purposely to not account for the postseason because UGA obviously didn't have bowl opponent like Michigan or Iowa last year and obviously haven't played Alabama.

The thing for me is this: I will criticize Mac when I see he deserves it. See, for example, my frustration with playcalling at times, personnel at times, recruiting at times. It appears that I am overly positive on Mac because I have to spend an inordinate amount of time not allowing TJ to tell the board that all Gator fans think Mac is an idiot, can't coach, etc.

That's his problem, he is beyond just negative. He is a troll. I didn't get into the banter between you and straws because I think it's hard to judge the rebuild project that each coach had to face. I tend to lean more towards the pro Florida argument, obviously, and I expect you to view it in a more pro UGA way.

My biggest concern for Mac is that he takes the next step. I think Florida has shown that they can be consistent 9-10 wins under Mac based on his first two years with rosters that have major flaws. I expect for him to take that next step forward this year, especially with the offense, so that he begins to establish the program again amongst the elite teams in America and we compete with the Bamas, FSUs, etc. He has a chance to make a statement to start the season against Michigan to show the true progress we've made under Mac.

As far as UGA goes, I would still be in wait and see mode. I know that you all are excited about the influx of talent and the excitement he's been able to manufacture around the program. I think it's fair to criticize his job in year one. To be blunt, I thought he did an extremely underwhelming job. Yalls schedule should not have had 5 losses on it last year. Kirby has to prove a lot still for me to see UGA as legit threats to win the East. That's mostly why I think Florida represents the East again. I don't think Kirby will be able to take UGA from where y'all were last year to 10-2 this year. I have to see it before I can believe it. My pre spring SEC East predictions would be Florida 10-2, UGA 8-4, Vanderbilt 8-4, Tennessee 7-5, Kentucky 7-5, South Carolina 6-6, Missouri 3-9

As far as you thinking I was a troll, I don't think I've ever trolled UGA on here. I've trolled Tennessee before because of how obnoxious their fans are. And LSU for similar reasons. I prefer to have good football discussion with fans of different relevant SEC teams, that's why I joined this board. Unfortunately, you rarely get good conversation on this board, and yet I still can't seem to stay away from it

quote:

---

Straws - seems to be a troll on the opposite end of the spectrum. disagrees with everything TJ says, sets up shop on the overly positive ideas, and refuses to let go. Accuses TJ of being a dumbass, then turns around and does pretty much the same thing.

---

quote:

---

I'm not saying he's the best coach ever, hell, I'm not even saying he's a great coach. But he is taking us in the opposite direction of losing seasons and until he has one I don't think it's fair to say he's the same or nothing is changing -- because we did improve our record (alone) and had the first year in which we had two 500+ yard games in the SEC since 2008. I'm saying: Give him a chance to install his players as he hasn't had any, because the last fricking loser of a coach left nothing to work with on one side of the ball. Not saying he's great, just saying you can't shite on him in his second year when he's won the division, lost one (1) home game his entire tenure and has shown he can beat good teams (LSU and Iowa).

---

What overly positive ideas? I've always been realistic, never said McElwain was the second incarnate, simply that we've been going in the opposite direction of losing seasons and that's pretty nice. Give him some time to install his players and ideas, let's see what happens.

Calling me a ''dumbass'' and then going and accusing me of something that I don't do isn't a good look for you.

quote:

---

With regards to Muschamp's 7-5 season...

For Straws to indicate that he's somehow Will Muschamp 2.0 is a bit ludicrous after a single season... it's certainly possible, but there isn't sufficient evidence to draw the conclusion.

---

It's hyperbolic for sure, and I don't mean to troll you too hard in that regard but -- I see some glaring similarities between the two. There is TOO MUCH talent at Georgia to be producing the way they are. Was it Richt's fault? Well, the new coach came in and performed the same way.

Coming close to losing against teams wherein they should have won easily, losing to teams that they should never lose to and barely winning games wherein another team (like, say, the Gators) destroyed those opponents and with a team that was coming off of two years of absolute lethargy (one where we didn't bowl and lost to an FCS) where Georgia was coming off of two very, very good years when ''the SEC was better'' in your own words.

I may have jumped the gun just to hurt you guys, but you guys aren't given any pause about these circumstances?

quote:

---

Georgia was coming off of two very, very good years when ''the SEC was better'' in your own words.

---

It's obvious why y'all want to make it 2 years because it lets y'all include an awful season in 2013 and makes use a good season in 2014. Well, that's taking it a bit too far as the teams changed too much in those 2 years for it to be a reasonable point of comparison.

Once again, your ideas are wrong. 2015 was an awful sec east and uga was not close to very good. Actually very similar to uf 2015 and 2016: Average teams that beat a bunch of crap teams and lost big to the top teams. I already pointed out how uf's point diff was better in 2014, and you never admitted it.