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Is there a shortage of quality pocket passers coming out of high school now days
Posted on 2/3/17 at 9:38 am
Posted on 2/3/17 at 9:38 am
It's no secret that the VAST majority of high schools are using a spread type running offense now instead of the traditional pocket passer style. As a result, you have far more "dual threat QB's" (most of which pose no threat whatsoever through the air) and far fewer quality passers. Sure there are some still making it out of course evidenced by the good passers we still see in college, but that number is dwindling.
Are high school football team's need to win by running that style offense killing the quarterback quality in this country? I said a few years back that the run spread was ruining football, specifically the hurry up no huddle version of it, and I said it then for far different reasons. Is the run spread now ruining football by no longer forcing high schools to develop passing quarterbacks at the previous rate? There just doesnt seem to be nearly as many pocket passers on the recruiting boards anymore.
Are high school football team's need to win by running that style offense killing the quarterback quality in this country? I said a few years back that the run spread was ruining football, specifically the hurry up no huddle version of it, and I said it then for far different reasons. Is the run spread now ruining football by no longer forcing high schools to develop passing quarterbacks at the previous rate? There just doesnt seem to be nearly as many pocket passers on the recruiting boards anymore.
3
Posted on 2/3/17 at 9:43 am to ThaKaptin
NFL guys all say that the two things that have suffered the most from the total shift away from one-back prostyle, QB calling plays and reading defenses offenses are : QB play and OL play (specifically tackles).
QB's aren't asked to learn how to read things like they once were, they either look to the sidelines or run 1-2 option reads. Offensive lineman aren't forced to learn how to play with their feet because most plays their job is also either an option or just play paddy cake while the QB reads the option.
QB's aren't asked to learn how to read things like they once were, they either look to the sidelines or run 1-2 option reads. Offensive lineman aren't forced to learn how to play with their feet because most plays their job is also either an option or just play paddy cake while the QB reads the option.
This post was edited on 2/3/17 at 9:44 am
Posted on 2/3/17 at 9:53 am to Triple Daves
Yeah, didnt Joe Theisman go on a holy crusade against the spread a few years back or was that someone else Im thinking of?
Posted on 2/3/17 at 9:56 am to ThaKaptin
Can't remember - I mean, the answer could be more NFL teams need to adapt to what the kids are good at - but that will take time.
I can't imagine any of the young QBs outside of maybe Jameis being able to run the offenses that Atlanta, New England, Green Bay or even New Orleans run. Who knows, maybe those kids will learn.
I can't imagine any of the young QBs outside of maybe Jameis being able to run the offenses that Atlanta, New England, Green Bay or even New Orleans run. Who knows, maybe those kids will learn.
Posted on 2/3/17 at 9:58 am to ThaKaptin
This guy has your back fam
Posted on 2/3/17 at 9:59 am to lsupride87
He play for Bud Kilmer?
Posted on 2/3/17 at 10:01 am to TT9
quote:Nah, he aint as good as Lance Harbor. But he has blonde hair and sweet bangs, so he must be a pocket passer
He play for Bud Kilmer?
Posted on 2/3/17 at 10:02 am to TT9
Posted on 2/3/17 at 10:03 am to lsupride87
touchePosted on 2/3/17 at 10:07 am to TT9
quote:
He play for Bud Kilmer?
You know they tore that old statue down
Posted on 2/3/17 at 10:15 am to ThaKaptin
Speaking of sweet bangs, this is a sad day for bang lovers everywhere. The original bang GOAT, seems to be receding
Posted on 2/3/17 at 10:19 am to lsupride87
Yeesh, JPW is looking old.
Posted on 2/3/17 at 10:41 am to ThaKaptin
quote:
It's no secret that the VAST majority of high schools are using a spread type running offense now instead of the traditional pocket passer style. As a result, you have far more "dual threat QB's" (most of which pose no threat whatsoever through the air) and far fewer quality passers. Sure there are some still making it out of course evidenced by the good passers we still see in college, but that number is dwindling.
Are high school football team's need to win by running that style offense killing the quarterback quality in this country? I said a few years back that the run spread was ruining football, specifically the hurry up no huddle version of it, and I said it then for far different reasons. Is the run spread now ruining football by no longer forcing high schools to develop passing quarterbacks at the previous rate? There just doesnt seem to be nearly as many pocket passers on the recruiting boards anymore.
A lot of that is because most high schools put their best athlete at quarterback to get him the ball every play rather than finding and developing quarterbacks.
Posted on 2/3/17 at 10:53 am to ThaKaptin
quote:quote:
He play for Bud Kilmer?quote:
You know they tore that old statue down
nah, they left it. only because it was too heavy to move.
Posted on 2/3/17 at 11:04 am to finchmeister08
quote:
nah, they left it. only because it was too heavy to move.
godammit, I forgot that shite
nice catch
Posted on 2/3/17 at 11:20 am to Triple Daves
QB's aren't asked to learn how to read things like they once were, they either look to the sidelines or run 1-2 option reads. Offensive lineman aren't forced to learn how to play with their feet because most plays their job is also either an option or just play paddy cake while the QB reads the option.
You act like that is a bug, and not a feature.
I'm going to give my take on this whole thing.
Okay, in the college game, there are two offenses that are called spreads: The one we know and love with the running qb, and the Air Raid (though it is becoming less common to call an Air Raid that).
Now probably the most dynamic offenses in college now kind of marry the two, Baylor is an example, and West Virginia to a lesser degree. Not going to say any more about the Air Raid.
Now what makes the "spread" tick? Sure the name talks about one feature "spreading the field," (and you will run into that tired old story about Urban Meyer and his player crying at Notre Dame cause they didn't distribute the ball or something).
But the real key is this: if the quarterback is fully integrated into the offense as a running threat...
Then the defense CANNOT double cover, unless they are comfortable leaving one guy totally free. And most defenses just will not do that.
You see with a drop back qb who isn't going to leave the pocket, the defense has a numbers advantage. They know the qb isn't going to run. That means they can double cover, send someone on a blitz, the whole shebang of stuff that has been worked out since about 1960 or so. The big one is that they can't double cover though (well they can, but isn't a good idea).
But what happens if the qb is totally fine with saying "Ok, everyone's covered time to motor." And the offense is designed to do this?
Well that means you don't have to have a guy who "can make all the throws," and have the positronic brain to make all the reads and checkdowns he is supposed to in 2 to 4 seconds.
That isn't easy. And not very many people can do it at the level it takes to be a Tom Brady/Drew Brees kind of NFL passer. There are lots of guys who are 6'4" with big arms. But they wash out of the league regularly (and always have). Because if you can't make the reads and checkdowns it doesn't do you much good.
Now there are a whole lot more guys that are good athletes that can make the throws in a spread. The throws are just easier basically. And they only have to make a couple reads as you said.
As an aside, do you really think most high schools have any business running a drop back offense? Sure the competition isn't what it is in college, but almost none of them have kids who can make the throws, let alone the reads. Whereas most of them can dig up a guy who can do something with a spread offense.
That aspect of the high school game isn't going to come back, regardless of what Bielema wants. The spread fits the kind of players most high schools have to work with a whole lot better than a drop back offense (be honest when you did see a high school offense doing it, it was mostly runs by the tailback, with a very occasional pass). Because very few high schools have a guy who can make an accurate throw 30 yards downfield against even high school db's, let alone have that be his 2nd or 3rd checkdown.
I could say lots, lots more. You do realize that Alabama, with more defensive talent than anyone else, really doesn't shut down spread teams with great qb's?
Can't be done. Well you can do it if your defensive talent dwarfs what the offense has. But even Alabama doesn't have that kind of talent disparity over teams like Clemson or Ohio State.
More commonly when you see one of these high flying spread teams stink it up, it is because their qb had a bad day. Not anything the defense did. They just weren't on that day.
Alabama (to cite them again) has beaten a lot of spread teams. But if you look, they have actually OUTSCORED a lot of them (obvious right?). Thing is they are giving up like 40 points and winning 49-38 or something when they do.
They just don't stifle them like they do poor old LSU (one of the few teams that is actually competitive with Alabama from a talent standpoint).
Like I said, I could say lots more. But defenses totally figured out everything about the pro set/I formation/drop back offense a long time ago. And how to stop running offenses from that approach.
Book was written, and book was finished. End of story.
I've seen lots of the LSU fans say things like "Well if Les had bothered to develop a qb..."
WRONG. Unless Andrew Luck or Bert Jones walks through the door you aren't beating Alabama at their own game (and they have changed with Hurts it looks like). Basically you might out talent most teams, even in the SEC, but you just aren't with Alabama.
So even if you did have some stud passer with a Cutler or Stafford arm, it wouldn't help you that much.
You act like that is a bug, and not a feature.
I'm going to give my take on this whole thing.
Okay, in the college game, there are two offenses that are called spreads: The one we know and love with the running qb, and the Air Raid (though it is becoming less common to call an Air Raid that).
Now probably the most dynamic offenses in college now kind of marry the two, Baylor is an example, and West Virginia to a lesser degree. Not going to say any more about the Air Raid.
Now what makes the "spread" tick? Sure the name talks about one feature "spreading the field," (and you will run into that tired old story about Urban Meyer and his player crying at Notre Dame cause they didn't distribute the ball or something).
But the real key is this: if the quarterback is fully integrated into the offense as a running threat...
Then the defense CANNOT double cover, unless they are comfortable leaving one guy totally free. And most defenses just will not do that.
You see with a drop back qb who isn't going to leave the pocket, the defense has a numbers advantage. They know the qb isn't going to run. That means they can double cover, send someone on a blitz, the whole shebang of stuff that has been worked out since about 1960 or so. The big one is that they can't double cover though (well they can, but isn't a good idea).
But what happens if the qb is totally fine with saying "Ok, everyone's covered time to motor." And the offense is designed to do this?
Well that means you don't have to have a guy who "can make all the throws," and have the positronic brain to make all the reads and checkdowns he is supposed to in 2 to 4 seconds.
That isn't easy. And not very many people can do it at the level it takes to be a Tom Brady/Drew Brees kind of NFL passer. There are lots of guys who are 6'4" with big arms. But they wash out of the league regularly (and always have). Because if you can't make the reads and checkdowns it doesn't do you much good.
Now there are a whole lot more guys that are good athletes that can make the throws in a spread. The throws are just easier basically. And they only have to make a couple reads as you said.
As an aside, do you really think most high schools have any business running a drop back offense? Sure the competition isn't what it is in college, but almost none of them have kids who can make the throws, let alone the reads. Whereas most of them can dig up a guy who can do something with a spread offense.
That aspect of the high school game isn't going to come back, regardless of what Bielema wants. The spread fits the kind of players most high schools have to work with a whole lot better than a drop back offense (be honest when you did see a high school offense doing it, it was mostly runs by the tailback, with a very occasional pass). Because very few high schools have a guy who can make an accurate throw 30 yards downfield against even high school db's, let alone have that be his 2nd or 3rd checkdown.
I could say lots, lots more. You do realize that Alabama, with more defensive talent than anyone else, really doesn't shut down spread teams with great qb's?
Can't be done. Well you can do it if your defensive talent dwarfs what the offense has. But even Alabama doesn't have that kind of talent disparity over teams like Clemson or Ohio State.
More commonly when you see one of these high flying spread teams stink it up, it is because their qb had a bad day. Not anything the defense did. They just weren't on that day.
Alabama (to cite them again) has beaten a lot of spread teams. But if you look, they have actually OUTSCORED a lot of them (obvious right?). Thing is they are giving up like 40 points and winning 49-38 or something when they do.
They just don't stifle them like they do poor old LSU (one of the few teams that is actually competitive with Alabama from a talent standpoint).
Like I said, I could say lots more. But defenses totally figured out everything about the pro set/I formation/drop back offense a long time ago. And how to stop running offenses from that approach.
Book was written, and book was finished. End of story.
I've seen lots of the LSU fans say things like "Well if Les had bothered to develop a qb..."
WRONG. Unless Andrew Luck or Bert Jones walks through the door you aren't beating Alabama at their own game (and they have changed with Hurts it looks like). Basically you might out talent most teams, even in the SEC, but you just aren't with Alabama.
So even if you did have some stud passer with a Cutler or Stafford arm, it wouldn't help you that much.
Posted on 2/3/17 at 4:53 pm to ThaKaptin
Posted on 2/3/17 at 4:56 pm to lsupride87
quote:
sweet bangs
How the hell did he end up at LSU then. The Mett changed everything I guess.
This post was edited on 2/3/17 at 4:57 pm
Posted on 2/3/17 at 5:54 pm to ThaKaptin
Yes it is and the spread thing is necessary because younger players (including many NCAA Div I players) lack the discipline and skills to provide support around a drop-back passing style offense. As defenses become more athletic and less fat-arse-esque, this trend will reverse itself. No scheme lasts forever.
Posted on 2/3/17 at 6:00 pm to Warfarer
You're correct. Saban in an interview said that as he is getting draft grades for his players that some of the NFL analyst are asking where are the defensive skill position players at. He said essentially the same thing you did. Everyone is putting their best players on the offensive side of the ball. He said that's why or rather alluded to the fact that some of these great offensive skill players Alabama signed will likely be asked to play on the defensive side of the ball. He pointed out Cyrus Jones specifically how he was signed as a WR switched to DB and then wound up getting drafted in the second round.
This post was edited on 2/3/17 at 6:01 pm
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