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re: Hugh Freeze Quote Ayn Rand????

Posted on 2/5/13 at 2:49 pm to
Posted by shakermaker
Memphis
Member since Nov 2012
15 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 2:49 pm to
The POTUS generally is.
Posted by MonroeTiger80
Member since Dec 2004
523 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 2:54 pm to
quote:

The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.



I can be an Objectivist pursuing my own self-interest and happiness and be running a home for abused women or orphaned children, can I not? Or do YOU think there is a finite way to define happiness or self-interest.

Happiness has endless manifestations in Rand's philosophy as long as they're self-defined.
Posted by oklahogjr
Gold Membership
Member since Jan 2010
36744 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 2:59 pm to
quote:

I'm impressed that so many in this crowd actually read "Atlas Shrugged"

I'm not surprised by the time you're obsessed enough with a college football program to follow them on a message board regularly you probably attended school there... unless of course you're a bama fan and then you probably didn't attend school there.
Posted by DontCare
Baton Rouge
Member since Apr 2012
2516 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 4:05 pm to
quote:

a fair marketplace where it can judge disputes

so, what you're saying is that libertarian governance takes a backseat approach to its role in society, except that it has to create "a fair marketplace?" so, what constitutes "fair," in this regard? will it be the sole, autocratic judge of those disputes? who will serve in the judging process? how will it do this? perhaps we should set up some event in which the government can weigh the "fairness" of a given dispute. we could call it a "trial!" then, to insure "fairness," the hands-off libertarian government could apply the results of each trial equally to all its citizens and we could call those rules "laws."

groundbreaking stuff! rand was a true pioneer!

quote:

he had no sense of understanding of human nature
and you're doubly correct about this. i heard that marx actually failed out of his human naturology class at moscow university.
Posted by aggressor
Austin, TX
Member since Sep 2011
8714 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 4:13 pm to


I was not suggesting that having laws and courts was a groundbreaking idea by Rand. I was saying that Rand (and libertarians) believe in minimalist government. Minimalist government includes laws and judges to rule between parties that have a dispute and thus avoid anarchy. Libertarianism and laissez faire capitalism do not mean anarchy.
Posted by DawgHolliday
the 'cloven-land', ga
Member since Sep 2012
4977 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 4:22 pm to
quote:

You must really detest the POTUS then. There's no bigger malignant narcissist in the world


Im not a fan, but that is hardly the only reason and definitely not the most important one.
Posted by shakermaker
Memphis
Member since Nov 2012
15 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 6:10 pm to
quote:

I can be an Objectivist pursuing my own self-interest and happiness and be running a home for abused women or orphaned children, can I not? Or do YOU think there is a finite way to define happiness or self-interest. Happiness has endless manifestations in Rand's philosophy as long as they're self-defined.


Yeah you could, but you would be a really bad Objectivist. Man exists for his own sake, remember? Now if charity makes you happy, we're exiting Objectivism, because a true objectivist would see not value in wasting time on trifle things such helping those in need. It's wasted energy not supporting your existence.

I don't have the finite way to define happiness, but do I think that a framework which defaults to just pleasing yourself and yourself only is a fancy way of rationalizing being as arse.

Posted by aggressor
Austin, TX
Member since Sep 2011
8714 posts
Posted on 2/5/13 at 7:52 pm to
You don't understand Objectivism then but rather you are stating what you want it to be so you can bash it. Here is a thorough explanation from atlassociety:

quote:

Question: What is the Objectivist position on charity for the poor, children who are poor, and the disabled?

Answer: Objectivism holds that there is nothing wrong with charity, so long as one is pursuing one's own values in providing it. As Ayn Rand said, charity is a marginal issue: it is not especially noble to engage in it, but if pursued prudently and seriously, and not at the cost of other important values, it can be a source of good for one's society and ultimately one's self. Objectivists tend to view their donations to causes as investments in some kind of improvement: a better culture, a better city, etc. But like investments, these require attention to make sure they are paying off.

The Objectivist view of charity is very different from most traditional moralities, such as Christian ethics or secular altruism. These ethics esteem self-sacrifice. They are contemptuous of wealth and are suspicious of individuals who seek achievement and happiness for the sake of their own well-being here on earth. These ethics see greed as a major vice and charity as a major virtue. Many ethicists and religious leaders today believe that those who are successful have an obligation to support those who are not. They see incompetence as having a claim on competence, and they seem to think wealth is created by making other people poor.

Objectivism rejects the altruist premise of self-sacrifice. It holds that what is most morally admirable is achievement, productivity, and rationality, all in the service of one's own life and happiness. This doesn't mean that we should crush others underfoot; we benefit from benevolent relations with others. This can include generous support of causes and individuals we think deserve extra support. (You can read more about the Objectivist view of benevolence in David Kelley's monograph Unrugged Individualism.)

Objectivism sees benevolent generosity as the complement of justice, not its antithesis.
Objectivism sees benevolent generosity as the complement of justice, not its antithesis. One reason we don't have blanket obligations to support “the poor,” for example, is because many poor people are poor because of their own choices and congenital vices. You mention poor children, on the other hand, and here at least we may see opportunities to invest in people and see results, since children can be taught better ways of living. But mere charity is not necessarily helpful even in the case of children, as generations of government welfare programs and decades of ever-rising public school spending have proved.

Indeed, even to some degree in the case of children, Objectivism holds that the best we can do for others is grant them benevolent independence, an open field for achievement in a free society. This will encourage virtues of independence and productivity in parents, and allow diligent and talented children to experience the rewards of these traits. The ethics of self-sacrifice holds that the poor should envy the rich, and the rich should feel guilt. Rather than making envy the standard of social obligation, Objectivism seeks to make individualism and mutual respect the hallmarks of our society. If we can achieve this, this may help untie the knot of social pathologies that gets so much attention from today's social planners and would-be social improvers.

Ultimately, each of us is responsible for our own lives. This must lie at the heart of any moral system based on the facts of human nature. Objectivism recognizes this, and the Objectivist view of charity as morally marginal is a consequence. If you want to help strangers, go ahead. But don’t feel any prouder of yourself than if you had bought a Porsche.


Posted by KaiserSoze99
Member since Aug 2011
31669 posts
Posted on 2/6/13 at 1:43 am to
I was not trolling. Got busy. Couldn't answer. You and i simply have completely opposite understandings of Christianity. You cannot exercise faith without actions that demonstrate your faith. Forced action requires no faith at all. It is clear to me that you believe that none of that matters. But, ask yourself this: who benefits most from free-will charitable giving? The receiver or the giver? That's why commie welfare is not Christianity and is in fact anti-Christian at its core.
Posted by BorisJonson
College Station
Member since Dec 2012
354 posts
Posted on 2/6/13 at 2:28 am to
Charity is great, really, but charity can't help every single person that's in poverty. That's why welfare exists. Welfare can help people get out of poverty which in turn is good for the economy. I don't understand the idea that socialism and anything socialist is inherently bad or faulty. Outside of us, most wealthy, first world countries have universal health care and the quality and efficiency of that health care is a good deal better than it is here.

Of course, part of the problem here is government corruption from top to bottom. That's a problem that's practically unsolvable at this point.
Posted by aggressor
Austin, TX
Member since Sep 2011
8714 posts
Posted on 2/6/13 at 9:38 am to
quote:

Charity is great, really, but charity can't help every single person that's in poverty. That's why welfare exists. Welfare can help people get out of poverty which in turn is good for the economy. I don't understand the idea that socialism and anything socialist is inherently bad or faulty. Outside of us, most wealthy, first world countries have universal health care and the quality and efficiency of that health care is a good deal better than it is here.

Of course, part of the problem here is government corruption from top to bottom. That's a problem that's practically unsolvable at this point.


Welfare helps people get out of poverty? Seriously? Clearly you have never researched anything about welfare. The overwhelming majority of people on welfare become dependent on it as well as other government assistance programs. It has become a multi generational problem that has poured gasoline on to the destruction of families in poverty by actually incentivizing people to have children out of wedlock.

Universal HC is a disaster in most countries. It provides low quality care at a ridiculous price tag. My neighbor is from Edmonton. When he moved here in '07 if you needed an MRI it was a 6 month wait. Why? There were 5 MRI machines in the entire Province of Alberta, and they were old ones. Preventative care is decent and emergency care was good but anything else and you were looking at very, very long waits for very poor quality by US standards. Of course his taxes were only 48% of all income above $45k with no deductions for his 4 kids or his mortgage for that "free" health care.
Posted by KaiserSoze99
Member since Aug 2011
31669 posts
Posted on 2/6/13 at 11:53 am to
I agree with agressor said about virtually zero evidence that welfare helps people get out of poverty. In fact, evidence suggests the exact opposite.

But, to your point and mine. The hog was arguing that Jesus was a socialist. Like the comment about welfare and poverty, there is simple ZERO evidence. The texts indicate quite the opposite.

So, we have two guys here praising the welfare state and offering contradicting evidence of its greatness.

I suppose we should let this thread die or get an anchor.
This post was edited on 2/6/13 at 11:55 am
Posted by MetTiger
Member since Oct 2007
1213 posts
Posted on 2/6/13 at 12:52 pm to
quote:

RT @CoachHughFreeze: A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others." Ayn Rand.


hmm lets see what others might say:

@NickSaban: A creative football coach is one who wants to beat others into the ground and does it....

@LesMiles: A creative football coach is one who has the chest to attempt to dominate the titanic matchup on the gridiron, while at the same time consuming it (love ya, Les)
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