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Thoughts and Questions on Saban's Defensive Philosophy
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:14 pm
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:14 pm
A lot of the discussions I've seen and had with people since the Sugar Bowl seem to have been centered around the Saban defensive scheme. As most people know, Saban's defensive scheme is highly complex and built around a whole bunch of moving parts. Here is a good breakdown from an OSU website before the game.
Saban Pattern Matching (11 Warriors)
It feels like the combination of new offenses and the fact that the complexity of the scheme requires both (a)very good - elite corners and (b)veterans who understand the system well enough to not have to think creates unnecessary limitations on who can and cannot get on the field. We are forced to play guys who are less talented but are experienced than younger guys who are all-world talents but haven't mastered the system yet (and Saban is all about trust). The past few years have seen new talent that was clearly better suited to defend certain offenses (athletically) sit on the sidelines as we continued to play older players whose brains understood the schemes but whose bodies could not quite implement it.
So I guess my longwinded, thinking out loud question is : Is Saban's system going to need simplifying and tweaking or will the leaner, faster LB's and more elite secondary players signed in recent classes fix the issues?
Should be interesting to see how things are adapted going forward.
EDIT : I will say, these issues only pop up against elite passing/pass-run option offenses. Against bad/average/good offenses the defense still maintains dominance. But beating elite offenses is what matters.
Saban Pattern Matching (11 Warriors)
It feels like the combination of new offenses and the fact that the complexity of the scheme requires both (a)very good - elite corners and (b)veterans who understand the system well enough to not have to think creates unnecessary limitations on who can and cannot get on the field. We are forced to play guys who are less talented but are experienced than younger guys who are all-world talents but haven't mastered the system yet (and Saban is all about trust). The past few years have seen new talent that was clearly better suited to defend certain offenses (athletically) sit on the sidelines as we continued to play older players whose brains understood the schemes but whose bodies could not quite implement it.
So I guess my longwinded, thinking out loud question is : Is Saban's system going to need simplifying and tweaking or will the leaner, faster LB's and more elite secondary players signed in recent classes fix the issues?
Should be interesting to see how things are adapted going forward.
EDIT : I will say, these issues only pop up against elite passing/pass-run option offenses. Against bad/average/good offenses the defense still maintains dominance. But beating elite offenses is what matters.
This post was edited on 1/5/15 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:17 pm to SummerOfGeorge
If our DBs could just not give up long passes, it'd be great. Even when the WR is seemingly covered, it ends up being completed. Something has gotta give.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:19 pm to Funky Tide 8
quote:
Even when the WR is seemingly covered, it ends up being completed. Something has gotta give.
True, but not the only issue. Ohio State, for example, had guys running wide open dragging/slanting/posting across the middle on 3rd downs all night. So did other elite offenses the last few years. Safety and LB play/coverage gaps.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:20 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Saban's defensive scheme blows to be honest. He almost refuses to find a top defensive end.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:20 pm to SummerOfGeorge
We lost a game to damn good opponent. Why does everything have to be over analyzed by fans?
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:20 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Fwiw, I think Pruitt is trying to adapt Alabama's scheme to smaller, faster front 7 personnel that can stay on the field against any scheme. We might get a case-study when we get his guys in place.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:20 pm to DoubleDown
quote:
We lost a game to damn good opponent. Why does everything have to be over analyzed by fans?
Come on man, you think this is a one game issue?
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:21 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
Fwiw, I think Pruitt is trying to adapt Alabama's scheme to smaller, faster front 7 personnel that can stay on the field against any scheme. We might get a case-study when we get his guys in place.
Which is what we have been doing recruiting wise for the past 3 years. I think it will pay off with guys like Hand/Miller/Evans/Allen/etc, but I do wonder what kinds of changes will be made.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:21 pm to SummerOfGeorge
I think we often forget that these "less talented" players who are starting were highly recruited as well. I think the biggest problem this year was our CB's lacked experience, and we were short one safety. Those CB's who were often in position, weren't comfortable with the ball in the air, and rarely turned and knocked it down. I think it will be better next year.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:22 pm to FourThreeForty
quote:
Saban's defensive scheme blows to be honest. He almost refuses to find a top defensive end.
Dashawn Hand and Jon Allen say hello.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:23 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Didn't read. You have a hell of a coach so quit your bitching.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:23 pm to Teague
quote:
I think we often forget that these "less talented" players who are starting were highly recruited as well. I think the biggest problem this year was our CB's lacked experience, and we were short one safety. Those CB's who were often in position, weren't comfortable with the ball in the air, and rarely turned and knocked it down. I think it will be better next year.
At times. We have had some serious misses in recruiting in the secondary for a 2-3 year period and have paid the price (plus Eddie Jackson's injury and Eddie Williams departure).
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:24 pm to ButchItUp
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Didn't read. You have a hell of a coach so quit your bitching.
Discussions re: our defensive scheme and how it might be tweaked going forward aren't bitching.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:25 pm to Teague
I wonder how much of a difference Vinnie would have made if he stayed for 2014
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:25 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
Which is what we have been doing recruiting wise for the past 3 years. I think it will pay off with guys like Hand/Miller/Evans/Allen/etc, but I do wonder what kinds of changes will be made.
Yeah, but y'all are still bulking up guys like Allen and Hand.
TBH, the most noticeable difference will be at ILB imo. Alabama's will be 250. UGA's will be 230. At least that's how it looks to me.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:26 pm to Patton
quote:
I wonder how much of a difference Vinnie would have made if he stayed for 2014
Quite a bit I think. That + Eddie's injury really made things harder, I think.
Got to say, I really would like to hear Saban's reasoning for why he kept throwing Eddie into the fire once it was clear he just couldn't run with top-end wide receivers.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:28 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
Yeah, but y'all are still bulking up guys like Allen and Hand. TBH, the most noticeable difference will be at ILB imo. Alabama's will be 250. UGA's will be 230. At least that's how it looks to me.
We want guys like Allen and Hand to be able to play DT and DE (like A'Shawn). We have totally overhauled our defensive line with hybrid DT/DE types and it has been night and day this season. I expect that will be the plan going forward with 1-2 300+ NT's like Ivory for Arkansas and LSU games only.
The biggest change is in guys like Christian Miller and Rashaan Evans. Our OLB are smaller/quicker than previously and our DL are more fast-twitch but big enough to man the entire line. At least that is the plan from what I have gathered (and seen).
This post was edited on 1/5/15 at 12:29 pm
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:33 pm to SummerOfGeorge
You guys had your hands full with Arkansas (forgive me Bert), LSU, and Ole Miss. You guys have the talent, and honestly, I'm a little surprised you guys haven't full blown melted.
I think the defensive philosophy deserves a once over, if not a full revision. But hey, what do I know, Bert is fat - herp de derp.
I think the defensive philosophy deserves a once over, if not a full revision. But hey, what do I know, Bert is fat - herp de derp.
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:36 pm to blacknblu
quote:
You guys had your hands full with Arkansas (forgive me Bert), LSU, and Ole Miss. You guys have the talent, and honestly, I'm a little surprised you guys haven't full blown melted. I think the defensive philosophy deserves a once over, if not a full revision. But hey, what do I know, Bert is fat - herp de derp.
(a) The defense was very good in the Arkansas and LSU games and solid against Ole Miss. Those were road game - offense issues. Saban's philosophy will never have issues with a scheme like Arkansas or LSU.
(b) Full blown melted? We won the SEC. Why would we melt over losing a close game on the road and winning 2 close games on the road against bowl teams?
This post was edited on 1/5/15 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 1/5/15 at 12:40 pm to SummerOfGeorge
I think the simple answer is this: There is nothing wrong with his scheme. It obviously has been very successful for a long time and he has had fantastic corners and safeties executing the plan for many years. This year though, It's not the X's and O's, it's the Jimmies and Joes.
Meaning, he just doesn't have the secondary players he used to have.
Compare this secondary to the secondary in 2009. Or 2011. Or even 2012. It's just not even close. Even the 2013 version, which was underwhelming relative to his earlier secondaries was better than this one in 2014.
I think that's the biggest thing. If he gets better players back there we'll all wonder WTH happened.
Also, lets be fair, Alabama played some damn good offenses this year. TAMU, Auburn, Ohio State, WVU, etc... So even with their defense not having the best year ever it's not like they were terrible.
Meaning, he just doesn't have the secondary players he used to have.
Compare this secondary to the secondary in 2009. Or 2011. Or even 2012. It's just not even close. Even the 2013 version, which was underwhelming relative to his earlier secondaries was better than this one in 2014.
I think that's the biggest thing. If he gets better players back there we'll all wonder WTH happened.
Also, lets be fair, Alabama played some damn good offenses this year. TAMU, Auburn, Ohio State, WVU, etc... So even with their defense not having the best year ever it's not like they were terrible.
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