re: Abortion

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a large part of the female population, including myself, think of the "fetus" as their baby/child from the moment they discover they are pregnant. Immediately, you imagine what the child may look like, what they are going to be like, begin making future plans for them, etc. It is just as real as if you were actually holding the baby in your arms bc you already do hold them as such in your heart and mind.

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I'm the oldest of a large family--I feel very blessed that my parents did everything in their power to involve me and my siblings in the preparation for welcoming another life into our family. That meant taking "ownership" of said life long before Mom was showing. Everyone doesn't have the same experience, but for me it really impressed on me how precious life is at an early stage--long before they pass through the birth canal.

You're trying really hard to pull people to your standard of morality. You've convinced yourself it's so logical and universal. I don't blame you. I guess that's the epistemological line we've all crossed. That's really all we are arguing here. What should our standard be?


Mine is much easier to express. Don't kill unborn babies.

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You've convinced yourself it's so logical and universal. I don't blame you. I guess that's the epistemological line we've all crossed. That's really all we are arguing here. What should our standard be?

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I've considered it, and come to this conclusion:

What Tbird Says, Goes

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To me in such a scenario, it is. I understand if you disagree, but to me it's pretty black and white.

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I know it's a bad time for a white dude to tell a black dude what to do -- but you can't just say experience is completely inconsequential.

Notice I didn't write off experience completely -- just said that I don't need to directly do something to form an opinion on it.

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Nah, I'm not comparing life experience to gender equality. That's a reach, mang

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Is it, though?

You're saying a fetus and a five year old are virtually the same thing in spite of numerous biological, cognitive and experience differences.

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I'm saying that the life of a 5 year old does not carry more weight in my eyes than the life of an unborn child. One is not more important than the other in my eyes. Of course I'm not saying a fetus has the same cognitive abilities as a kindergardener. Never did I imply such, as that's asinine, and I'm a logical fellow

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This is where we get into strange contortion logic. So it doesn't have the same biological, cognitive or experience as a five year old yet it holds the same weight?

Can you name any other facet in reality wherein these same circumstances are replicated?

Outside of legal arguments of course -- 200 life sentences are pretty much the same as one due to default.

But I can't for the life of me find where you can say it's logically sound to say they're the exact same thing with so many differences.

Unless you're saying it's immeasurable?

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So it doesn't have the same biological, cognitive or experience as a five year old yet it holds the same weight?

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Absolutely.

I mean, come on, by your logic, the life of that same 5 year old carries less weight than, say, a septuagenarian.

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But I can't for the life of me find where you can say it's logically sound to say they're the exact same thing with so many differences.

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You're focusing on other life factors to make your claims--I'm saying I weigh human lives the same across the board. This is a difference in perspective, not logic.

When a fetus is present, you are taking what is potentially a life. Now, whether or not you are ok with killing a human being is up to you, but I think you should have to answer for that decision. Unless of course that human being is yourself.

Essentially, I'm not ok with any action that harms someone else. There is always a percent chance that a fetus becomes a child. I personally am not ok with gambling even a 1% chance that I'm taking someone's life.

At what probability are you ok with taking a life? That's the real question. If you're alright with saying there is a 99% chance you are killing what will be a person, then you're ok with 3rd trimester abortion. If you're with me on the 1%, you're probably not cool with anything after you test positive for pregnancy.

If you really want to look into where you stand, consider at what point you're cool with rolling the dice. Changes perspective a little when you consider pointing a gun at someone with 4 of 5 bullets in the chamber as opposed to having an abortion a month or so into pregnancy. Both have the same probability of taking a life, but one is easier because we don't have to look at them while we pull the trigger.

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Essentially, I'm not ok with any action that harms someone else.

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Self-defense not something you're interested in?

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Self-defense not something you're interested in?

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In short, no. At least not in the sense you are implying. I am ok with non lethal self defense. Someone is going to kill you or breaks in and you taze them, sure. But I in no way have the right to assume my life takes priority over theirs, even if they are attempting to take mine.

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Well, judging by the responses of Tbird and Carolina Girl (and I agree with both), then maybe it isn't quite as easy as you hope to think.

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Other than: They're the same -- I haven't been given a very convincing argument.

If you found out your wife was pregnant today, had a miscarriage tomorrow -- do you really, honestly, truly, deeply feel that you would react the same way as if you lost one of your kids? (I'm assuming you have kids.)

With that I really do have to go, I'll come back to defend myself tomorrow.