re: Abortion

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Now I'm not sure I'm following. I wouldn't choose either one, even if pressed. I really don't make a distinction regarding the quantification of life.

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You're absolutely certain that you would have a completely conscious being killed over one that has literally zero experience?

If you're certain, I don't feel like anything I can say will sway you -- but I think the answer is almost rhetorical/facile in nature.

Losing your five year old is infinitely worse than having a miscarriage at 14 weeks and it's not even close -- even if you simply use experience as a barometer.

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Hope you're doing well, btw

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Thanks, and yep! Hope the same for you!

On this note, I'm off to bed. Busy week. But y'all carry on and solve the problems of the world!

Oh, I agree. The social engineering projects, despite their widespread death and destruction, are sometimes quite effective.

I think it should be clear at this point that I do not believe the ends justify the means.

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Losing a child is a horrible experience no matter when it occurs (perish the thought).

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Again, this. I have experienced both. Late first trimester miscarriages and the preterm birth of my son at 25 weeks only to have him die at 7 months old. All of these losses nearly killed me. They made ME want to die. I cannot, in good heart, ever support abortion after having personally experienced these losses.

Oh good grief. Abolishing the practice of incarcerating murderers would also be smaller government. It's like you're intentionally missing the point.

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Losing a child yes, losing a blastocyst/fertilized egg that fails to implant, no.

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There's tons of gray area on where to feel sympathy, but a miscarriage =/= a dead kid no matter how you slice it.

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They're both bad, but one is obviously worse.

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Have you ever had a miscarriage? Had a child die? Until the answer is yes to both of those, please do not pretend to understand the semantics and emotions involved in these losses. They are both heart breaking, gut wrenching losses. Especially when you think of the "fetus" as your baby and child from the moment you get the positive result back from the pregnancy test.

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I think you're missing the point of the scenario by dodging the premise entirely.

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Nah, I'm not dodging anything. I'm saying there is no "choosing" for me in that scenario. If I can't die myself and save the other kid, I damn sure wouldn't choose between the two. That's not me tryna dodge, that's just stating my druthers on the matter.

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I'm not saying losing one isn't bad, I'm saying they're both bad: but one is worse.

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And that's where we disagree. For me, there's no scale of the macabre when it comes to such a scenario. Not trying to change how you feel on it, btw. Just saying for me, I don't see a difference.

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would you rather your son be a petty thief or a mass murderer?

You wouldn't want him to be either, but if you were forced to choose I would hope you stuck with petty theft.

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This is an apples to oranges comparison. Of course one would choose the option that wouldn't cause innocent folks to lose their lives. That's not an option in your other scenario.

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Have you ever had a miscarriage? Had a child die?

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I don't need to directly experience something to be able to form a valid opinion on it. Sorry to sound callous, it's not my intention.

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Until the answer is yes to both of those, please do not pretend to understand the semantics and emotions involved in these losses. They are both heart breaking, gut wrenching losses. Especially when you think of the "fetus" as your baby and child from the moment you get the positive result back from the pregnancy test.

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I feel like I've said multiple times that they're both bad and unwanted -- I just think it's pretty easy to say that losing a full grown child is way worse than losing a fetus.

Why?

The fetus isn't interacting with you on any cognizant level. It doesn't look you in the eye, keep you warm at night, it doesn't speak your name or achieve anything.

It just exists.

Yes, it's part of you. Yes, you have strong feelings for it. These are both undeniable, but there are tons of tangible, defensible and certain points to be made -- regardless of how well received they are traditionally.

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Nah, I'm not dodging anything. I'm saying there is no "choosing" for me in that scenario. If I can't die myself and save the other kid, I damn sure wouldn't choose between the two. That's not me tryna dodge, that's just stating my druthers on the matter.

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It's you suggesting that experience is absolutely null and void. It's the exact same thing when people say women and men are completely equal and they're not.