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MIssouri will never be a national power under this regime
Posted on 9/21/14 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 9/21/14 at 12:23 pm
You have to question not only Pinkel's decision making and ability to bring more than division titles trophies for recruits to look at. When I take a look back at Pinkel's tenure, I see an average coach with an average staff that under the right circumstances can make a run here and there only to get exposed by top tier programs when championships are on the line. Say what you want about recruiting rankings but they are a very good indicator of how well a team will be in the future. And yes you will find diamonds in a rough and solid 3 star contributors but you need dynamic players in premium positions.
I believe it’s more than Pinkel you have to be mad at; you have to look at the Athletic Departments itself. When you look at some of the flash and money being poured into these programs there is no mystery why they are beating us in recruiting on the field. It takes more than winning; it takes the dynamic locker room with the waterfall and soaking tubs. The digital lockers with Ipads already installed and biometric locks that 'looks cool' to 17 year olds. It takes a head coach sitting down with them selling them on a hip program with all the cool toys a teenager will get at any other program.
On signing day I looked at other programs and what they did as they received signatures. Quite a few programs including Tennessee and Vanderbilt had ESPN in the building talking with coaches as a new fax came in. Other programs had built elaborate sets and had their own show being streamed live. They had placard name plates made for the recruits ready to be put on an elaborate board for all TV crews to see. Mizzou decided to have the mizzou network sit around the MATC talking to coaches and have them put up Xeroxed pictures on a Hobby Lobby poster. There is no pizzazz with what they do, the graphics department using some old played out font with minimum production will not get recruits here or the program the identity it needs. Go on YouTube and look at videos made by programs like Ole Miss and Texas A&M and see why they keep sticking out to youngsters. This is only one part of the problem though.
Another big one in my mind is Money and doing whatever it takes to win. Now this may rub some the wrong way but I feel it must be said. Big Money will always be a part of college football, paying players will always be a part of it as well, and also not suspending players that do dumb shite will also be apart of this game. When you listen to Steve Spurrier talk about rebuilding USC whats the first thing he brings up? He knew he needed more money put into the program, he needed big boosters and donors give money in a major way to show the commitment to the program. I believe that money he speaks of is more than just for a name on the building or locker room; it was that commitment of having a network in place to land the big talent that they needed to be competitive. Also say what you want about how Stoops handled the DGB situation or Fisher with Winston, because our opinion doesn't win him football games and when it’s all said and done holding up that gold trophy at the end of the season is all that matters. And everyone will say what they want, but in the end they will still call you a champion.
Now back to Gary Pinkel specifically. I don't believe he has the temperament to be a national champion. I look at interviews of his where he mumbles and stutters over his reasoning for losing and it’s always the same practiced BS. I want to hear the man say he got outcoached and he was scared because it’s evident that's what happens. I don't believe the man has true faith in his player’s abilities to win games for him, so he has to manage those expectations himself and he does that very poorly. USCe last year he told us he didn't want to put the ball in the air, he just wanted to run the clock out with over 8 min remaining. At some point if you believe in your players you have to let them win the game especially in a situation where the other coach knows your tendencies and how you play things close to the vest. That ability to adapt and win the game instead of not losing it is a staple around COMO under Pinkel.
There is no killer instinct, no outright nasty demeanor with anyone on this staff and that's what you need to compete with the big boys. This nice guy stuff and building great men sounds good but in this big money business it doesn't win championships. And I blame the University for that. If they wanted more than division championships and no BCS bowls then they got exactly what they wanted. Pinkel should have been put on notice more than once about his average coaching ability by the administration if championships and being a viable contender in the national landscape was under serious consideration. But the reality is we are a middle of the road program with middle of the road players with some high end talent sprinkled in. And under this staff that's all they will be.
I believe it’s more than Pinkel you have to be mad at; you have to look at the Athletic Departments itself. When you look at some of the flash and money being poured into these programs there is no mystery why they are beating us in recruiting on the field. It takes more than winning; it takes the dynamic locker room with the waterfall and soaking tubs. The digital lockers with Ipads already installed and biometric locks that 'looks cool' to 17 year olds. It takes a head coach sitting down with them selling them on a hip program with all the cool toys a teenager will get at any other program.
On signing day I looked at other programs and what they did as they received signatures. Quite a few programs including Tennessee and Vanderbilt had ESPN in the building talking with coaches as a new fax came in. Other programs had built elaborate sets and had their own show being streamed live. They had placard name plates made for the recruits ready to be put on an elaborate board for all TV crews to see. Mizzou decided to have the mizzou network sit around the MATC talking to coaches and have them put up Xeroxed pictures on a Hobby Lobby poster. There is no pizzazz with what they do, the graphics department using some old played out font with minimum production will not get recruits here or the program the identity it needs. Go on YouTube and look at videos made by programs like Ole Miss and Texas A&M and see why they keep sticking out to youngsters. This is only one part of the problem though.
Another big one in my mind is Money and doing whatever it takes to win. Now this may rub some the wrong way but I feel it must be said. Big Money will always be a part of college football, paying players will always be a part of it as well, and also not suspending players that do dumb shite will also be apart of this game. When you listen to Steve Spurrier talk about rebuilding USC whats the first thing he brings up? He knew he needed more money put into the program, he needed big boosters and donors give money in a major way to show the commitment to the program. I believe that money he speaks of is more than just for a name on the building or locker room; it was that commitment of having a network in place to land the big talent that they needed to be competitive. Also say what you want about how Stoops handled the DGB situation or Fisher with Winston, because our opinion doesn't win him football games and when it’s all said and done holding up that gold trophy at the end of the season is all that matters. And everyone will say what they want, but in the end they will still call you a champion.
Now back to Gary Pinkel specifically. I don't believe he has the temperament to be a national champion. I look at interviews of his where he mumbles and stutters over his reasoning for losing and it’s always the same practiced BS. I want to hear the man say he got outcoached and he was scared because it’s evident that's what happens. I don't believe the man has true faith in his player’s abilities to win games for him, so he has to manage those expectations himself and he does that very poorly. USCe last year he told us he didn't want to put the ball in the air, he just wanted to run the clock out with over 8 min remaining. At some point if you believe in your players you have to let them win the game especially in a situation where the other coach knows your tendencies and how you play things close to the vest. That ability to adapt and win the game instead of not losing it is a staple around COMO under Pinkel.
There is no killer instinct, no outright nasty demeanor with anyone on this staff and that's what you need to compete with the big boys. This nice guy stuff and building great men sounds good but in this big money business it doesn't win championships. And I blame the University for that. If they wanted more than division championships and no BCS bowls then they got exactly what they wanted. Pinkel should have been put on notice more than once about his average coaching ability by the administration if championships and being a viable contender in the national landscape was under serious consideration. But the reality is we are a middle of the road program with middle of the road players with some high end talent sprinkled in. And under this staff that's all they will be.
This post was edited on 9/21/14 at 1:50 pm
5
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:22 pm to countrygrammar
If you really want anyone to read that break it up into paragraphs.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:45 pm to countrygrammar
holy frick no one is reading that
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:48 pm to countrygrammar
quote:
MIssouri will never be a national power under this regime
What were we in 2007, 2008 and 2013?
?
This post was edited on 9/21/14 at 1:48 pm
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:50 pm to Ridgewalker
It was a frustrated rant, thank you for the tip.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:51 pm to Ridgewalker
quote:
If you really want anyone to read that break it up into paragraphs.
Agree with this, but read it.
As to the OP... It's only our third year in the SEC. I assume the luxuriousness of the facilities will come in time.
As to Pinkel and playing not to lose - that's feels pretty accurate from their containment defensive philosophy to not wanting to bury opponents.
On the shadier part of the game - like paying and not suspending players for various offenses - Missouri had to let Green-Beckham go. Too much shite had gone over the Athletic Dept. dam during the preceding 24 months. They simply couldn't absorb any more bad publicity with Mizzou athletes behaving badly and then getting bailed out by administration.
And with the ongoing Ray Rice / NFL firestorm still raging, the days of sweeping female / spousal abuse under the rug are over.
As to Missouri never being a national power under Pinkel... You're right, but what are the odds Missouri would ever be a national power in the SEC anyway? I'd love to hear how you think this can be achieved. I have my ideas, but would like to hear yours.
I agree Pinkel has probably taken the program about as far as he can. But what do you do about it?
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:52 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
An above average team that lost when it mattered most. We went on to put Cotton Bowl trophies in our glass cases. Leaving a legacy of never being able to win a championship in the Big XII on the way out. And being looked at as lucky (in which we did catch some big breaks) in the SEC.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:54 pm to countrygrammar
Cool story Nelly
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:09 pm to Mizz-SEC
On a personal level I can agree with the dismissal of DGB. My point was that many programs that are of national championship caliber, even with the Ray Rice situation, would have took the criticism and found a way to circumvent the media attention because he is that much of an impact player to ones program. Les Miles has shown this by having team votes on players that hit women.
As far as recruiting;
1.) I would revamp the whole recruiting staff and try and lure top talent in marketing and with a strong recruiting background from another national power. This would cost money but the investment into a top tier program requires this. 2.) I would recruit very heavy in the Midwest, much like Kentucky, and embrace our geographical differences from that of our southern brethren. Make us the SEC program that Illinois, Ohio, Kansas, etc wants to be apart of.
3.) When it comes to our brand I would heavily emphasize the past success with future marketability and NFL success. Flyers like Alabama does with its NFL players for instance. I would be blasting every recruit with pics and brochures of Sheldon as Defensive ROY. Justin and Aldon Smith together as a part of a dominant 49ers Defense. Saying we put players in the league and tweeting it once every 2 weeks is one thing, major blasts and continuing to echo that success is another.
4.)I would use that J School as a major selling point like no other when it comes to future dollars. Those students in that school will be the next big thing at Fox Sports, ESPN, or any local newsroom covering an SEC footprint. Selling recruits on that interaction and the positive branding that comes with it can only help.
5.) He needs a big college name that won a national championship as a player within the last 15 years on the staff. Also combining that with getting younger staff members.
Those are just a few. What about you?
As far as recruiting;
1.) I would revamp the whole recruiting staff and try and lure top talent in marketing and with a strong recruiting background from another national power. This would cost money but the investment into a top tier program requires this. 2.) I would recruit very heavy in the Midwest, much like Kentucky, and embrace our geographical differences from that of our southern brethren. Make us the SEC program that Illinois, Ohio, Kansas, etc wants to be apart of.
3.) When it comes to our brand I would heavily emphasize the past success with future marketability and NFL success. Flyers like Alabama does with its NFL players for instance. I would be blasting every recruit with pics and brochures of Sheldon as Defensive ROY. Justin and Aldon Smith together as a part of a dominant 49ers Defense. Saying we put players in the league and tweeting it once every 2 weeks is one thing, major blasts and continuing to echo that success is another.
4.)I would use that J School as a major selling point like no other when it comes to future dollars. Those students in that school will be the next big thing at Fox Sports, ESPN, or any local newsroom covering an SEC footprint. Selling recruits on that interaction and the positive branding that comes with it can only help.
5.) He needs a big college name that won a national championship as a player within the last 15 years on the staff. Also combining that with getting younger staff members.
Those are just a few. What about you?
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:10 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
But is that a false narrative?
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:19 pm to countrygrammar
quote:
On a personal level I can agree with the dismissal of DGB. My point was that many programs that are of national championship caliber, even with the Ray Rice situation, would have took the criticism and found a way to circumvent the media attention because he is that much of an impact player to ones program. Les Miles has shown this by having team votes on players that hit women.
In the past, some would but keep in mind that OU's AD was asked about DGB/Ray Rice and basically said that they wouldn't have taken him had that video been out - that's some glaring honesty from an AD who is basically admitting it's all about image for their program and he believes teams can't get away with taking these guys any longer.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:21 pm to countrygrammar
quote:
But what do you do about it?
We have to do something, we can't let programs like K-State achieve more than us its embarrassing, getting to their level is not unreasonable, Oklahoma level is unreasonable.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:27 pm to Prof
I agree 2014 has made it harder to keep things under wraps because the sight of an offense leads to different emotions than that of actually hearing about an offense. But to me this is still predicated on actually seeing the visual part of an offense, OU caught a lot of heat because of the DGB and Mixon situations on top of the Ray Rice fiasco. But I have to wonder if Mixon wasn't a freshman and the NCAA granted DGB his waiver would we be getting the same discipline from the Sooners?
Posted on 9/21/14 at 3:01 pm to countrygrammar
quote:
I agree 2014 has made it harder to keep things under wraps because the sight of an offense leads to different emotions than that of actually hearing about an offense. But to me this is still predicated on actually seeing the visual part of an offense, OU caught a lot of heat because of the DGB and Mixon situations on top of the Ray Rice fiasco. But I have to wonder if Mixon wasn't a freshman and the NCAA granted DGB his waiver would we be getting the same discipline from the Sooners?
Well I think the Ray Rice video showed what really happens when a man hits a woman. It's never a fair fight - never. And I honestly think some people imagined it would look less brutal and more fair than that but that's the truth of it. You hit anyone substantially smaller than you in the face like that and it's over before it begins (hell that's true no matter who you hit - you can sucker punch anyone and most will go down if you're small yourself). Rice is lucky he didn't kill her or do more damage than he did.
And while I agree with you that the Rice video woke people up, I'm not sure the public needs to see video every time now. They'll just remember what they saw in the Rice video. I'm not sure how OU would've punished Mixon but I highly doubt if DGB had been able to play/gotten a waiver they'd punish him. They'd say look 'that happened at Mizzou and we weren't there.' And 'no, we don't have plans to take players like this in light of the problems and awareness of violence against women we have today but we can't punish him for what he did or didn't do elsewhere...' or something to that.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 3:44 pm to countrygrammar
quote:
As far as recruiting;
1.) I would revamp the whole recruiting staff and try and lure top talent in marketing and with a strong recruiting background from another national power. This would cost money but the investment into a top tier program requires this. 2.) I would recruit very heavy in the Midwest, much like Kentucky, and embrace our geographical differences from that of our southern brethren. Make us the SEC program that Illinois, Ohio, Kansas, etc wants to be apart of.
3.) When it comes to our brand I would heavily emphasize the past success with future marketability and NFL success. Flyers like Alabama does with its NFL players for instance. I would be blasting every recruit with pics and brochures of Sheldon as Defensive ROY. Justin and Aldon Smith together as a part of a dominant 49ers Defense. Saying we put players in the league and tweeting it once every 2 weeks is one thing, major blasts and continuing to echo that success is another.
4.)I would use that J School as a major selling point like no other when it comes to future dollars. Those students in that school will be the next big thing at Fox Sports, ESPN, or any local newsroom covering an SEC footprint. Selling recruits on that interaction and the positive branding that comes with it can only help.
5.) He needs a big college name that won a national championship as a player within the last 15 years on the staff. Also combining that with getting younger staff members.
Those are just a few. What about you?
I really-really like your ideas.
Completely agree on embracing our geography by trying to make the Upper Midwest a Mizzou outpost for kids wanting to play in the SEC. Not to the exclusion of Florida, Georgia and Texas, but definitely as point of emphasis.
I also like your 3rd and 4th points. The J-school lure of being a media member is second only to the NFL for most of these kids, so it makes a nice double hit.
The only other idea (which the school is already implementing) are the Nike uniforms. But I'd take it a step further by doing a detailed examination of how Oregon built itself into a national program.
A small part of Oregon's image is the uniforms, a bigger part of it is the style of play. I would embrace the idea of new age football in an old man football conference, with the goal of branding Missouri as the Oregon of the SEC.
As far as the coaches and recruiters themselves, I have no idea. So I'll trust yours are good.
BTW, as an aside, I think you're underestimating the impact of the Ray Rice situation. The media will never allow or accept a team vote on a spousal abuse issue ever again. They've got the big stick and have the NFL running scared. What chance would Les Miles or Big Game Bob stand?
Posted on 9/21/14 at 4:13 pm to Mizz-SEC
I agree we have to look into that Oregon blueprint a little bit on the impact of alternate jerseys.
I agree that Ray Rice situation has opened many eyes in domestic abuse. Im not trying to downplay it at all, the future of punishments may be vastly different. Or depending on the narrative and the situation it could all be the same.
quote:
BTW, as an aside, I think you're underestimating the impact of the Ray Rice situation. The media will never allow or accept a team vote on a spousal abuse issue ever again. They've got the big stick and have the NFL running scared. What chance would Les Miles or Big Game Bob stand?
I agree that Ray Rice situation has opened many eyes in domestic abuse. Im not trying to downplay it at all, the future of punishments may be vastly different. Or depending on the narrative and the situation it could all be the same.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 6:06 pm to countrygrammar
I would agree with the sentiment that GP has probably taken the program about as far as he can. And that's not a bad thing. In fact, it's a pretty damn good thing. From complete irrelevance to winning titles in the Big 12 and now the SEC in only our 2nd year. I want to win something of significance too, but those are no small feats. Look how long many programs go without even doing that.
As for getting to the next level, I think they are laying the groundwork for that. We are brand new to this battle of arms and have been sinking money into upgrades and continue to do so. It seems I've seen more offers in what I consider midwest states than before to go along with the Florida and Georgia offers. In fact, I definitely noted that the WR on the PI call on Gibson was none other than Dominique Booth who we recruited heavily. Just gotta start winning those recruiting battles.
Good ideas. I think the staff has made in roads on some of them already. The biggest question for the program moving forward will be who we hire when GP retires.
As for getting to the next level, I think they are laying the groundwork for that. We are brand new to this battle of arms and have been sinking money into upgrades and continue to do so. It seems I've seen more offers in what I consider midwest states than before to go along with the Florida and Georgia offers. In fact, I definitely noted that the WR on the PI call on Gibson was none other than Dominique Booth who we recruited heavily. Just gotta start winning those recruiting battles.
Good ideas. I think the staff has made in roads on some of them already. The biggest question for the program moving forward will be who we hire when GP retires.
Posted on 9/22/14 at 10:50 am to Mizz-SEC
quote:
Those are just a few. What about you?
-------------------------------------
I really-really like your ideas.
same here, what I would add(and already have in other posts) is that it's a damn crying disgrace for any school let alone Mizzou with our J-school to so absolutely suck at media relations and PR. Moller is a neophyte at best and should be learning at a small time bev10 school, not at a place like Mizzou. We suck at messaging, branding and general ability to sell to anyone and just about everyone, and that is on Mike Alden and his boss, which is a thing I really hope Loftin will get fixed.
Of course Pinkel isn't a great salesman, if he was, he would have locked up the state in recruiting by now and it's clearly not going to happen under his watch. But the ability to present well needs to be a dual effort of the coaching and AD staff and is something that had better get fixed, talking about leveraging the J-school properly is a great reminder of this sore point. Without being able to do this it will be a really difficult task to bring in the right coach to get to the top shelf, this is really a direct failure that is on Alden, who is undercutting his own ability to get top coaching candidates in the door.
Getting a coach like Chris Peterson is doable but you have to have the right elements in place set up, if you get the marketing and facilities right, you can get the big time coach that can get the job done, but it isn't just going to fall into place by itself. You need the big idea guy to make it happen and so far that really doesn't look like Alden's mo.
quote:
As to Missouri never being a national power under Pinkel... You're right, but what are the odds Missouri would ever be a national power in the SEC anyway?
odds of that are a long shot for anyone anywhere to do that, but waiting for the stars to line up is an even bigger long shot, I agree with Reedus, I think Pinkel has gone as far as he can, taken us as far as he's capable that is, and the same may very well apply to Alden. Big picture, big idea, that's where it starts.
This post was edited on 9/22/14 at 10:57 am
Posted on 9/22/14 at 12:10 pm to Jagd Tiger
quote:
odds of that are a long shot for anyone anywhere to do that, but waiting for the stars to line up is an even bigger long shot, I agree with Reedus, I think Pinkel has gone as far as he can, taken us as far as he's capable that is, and the same may very well apply to Alden. Big picture, big idea, that's where it starts.
I believe with the proper direction this program could become a perennial power playing for more than mediocre fan expectations. We have risen from the cellar of the 80's and 90's so dwelling on those past failures means nothing in 2014 and going forward. There are programs on the current national stage who have went through periods of putting a bad product on the field, but eventually they have found a way to become relevant in this era.
I hope I am wrong but I believe, like many others, that Pinkel is not the one to take this program over the top. His temperament and overall philosophy with coaches, scheme, and recruiting just will not get us to that 15th game. We have seen it over and over again. We can all be proud of the 12 win seasons and 10 win seasons but eventually that is not enough, especially when we have not even won a conference championship in almost 50 years.
Being under the radar sounds good but it does not actual help the overall program. I have a strong belief that programs like Alabama, Oregon, LSU, and Auburn exposure across College Talk Radio and the ESPN platforms help in recruiting. Imagine being an ESPN 300 player constantly being talked about by Tom Luginbill because you committed to Alabama or Texas.
This isn't a major rebuild job, its not, but major strides need to be taken to be the program I know Missouri can be.
Posted on 9/22/14 at 1:51 pm to countrygrammar
so your plan is to magically find eleventy billion dollars and just throw money at the most expensive coaches/recruiters. 
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