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re: Do you think God controls the weather?
Posted on 5/25/15 at 11:51 am to the808bass
Posted on 5/25/15 at 11:51 am to the808bass
quote:
My friend, George, started a non-profit to work in a small town in Guatemala a few years back. And in those interim years, the non-profit has built over 20 homes for widows, started a vocational school, refurbished and supplied a special-needs school and updated and upgraded a local school. Does George have a better idea of the effects of a Christian worldview on the attitude towards others' plight than Sam Harris? He does. And he serves because of it. If I told you the name of George's organization, you would have never heard of it. Because it's one of thousands and thousands of similar organizations.
That's fantastic and your friend sounds like a great guy. However, the idea we are talking about is that saying "it was all god's plan/god did it" might take away from experiencing the true human emotion of a negative situation. I do think that Christians have done some great things for people in need.
quote:
Ok. Let's assume God intervenes in these catastrophes and doesn't allow them to happen. What's the cutoff for you? Can 3 people die in a traffic accident? Can 10 people die of hemmorhagic fever? Where does God need to intervene and where can he stop to keep you happy about the situation?
I think you're misunderstanding my point. My point is that a majority of Christians believe that god can intervene (prayer would be an example). However, I see horrible gruesome deaths of children. Children with parents that, no doubt, prayed for their safety. God didn't give it to them. So, to me, saying that god can intervene is pretty cruel to someone like that.... and saying "oh, it was all part of god's plan that your child died", is something said to lessen the blow of the loss of the child and quite disingenuous/deceitful (if you really thought about it). I understand that it is a quick move that would make certain people feel better.
I don't fully stand behind the Sam Harris quote, though. I think that god could just be a force in the universe (kind of like Spinoza's god). With that, god wouldn't intervene. It wouldn't be a personal god. It would just be, at best, an observer (therefore not impotent, evil, or nonexistent). I see Harris' point, though.
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Posted on 5/25/15 at 11:54 am to Agforlife
quote:
This is what God looks like
Well, that's sort of what a psychedelic trip looks like
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:04 pm to rbWarEagle
Or this
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:14 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
However, the idea we are talking about is that saying "it was all god's plan/god did it" might take away from experiencing the true human emotion of a negative
Sure. It might. It just doesn't seem to have done that in the course of Christian theology or history in any significant way.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:14 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Well, this is quite the dramatic scenario you set up. I have hope in different things, though. I have hope in love, family, friends, good people, technological progress, etc. That doesn't leave me in a hopeless pit of despair. Maybe it is harder to get over something for some people when they don't have religion to fall back on. That doesn't validate the religion, though. Further, I haven't ruled out the idea of "god". Just the idea that we know anything about said "god" or that god intervenes in our lives.
You are the one that keeps inserting dramatic scenarios, peoples children being killed by hurricanes ect.
You also make it clear that you don't understand much about the faith you are examining. At this point you are just trolling to make 808 upset when it is clear you are choosing to remain closed minded and unwilling to let go of your baseless assumptions and broad generalizations.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:24 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
However, I see horrible gruesome deaths of children. Children with parents that, no doubt, prayed for their safety. God didn't give it to them. So, to me, saying that god can intervene is pretty cruel to someone like that.... and saying "oh, it was all part of god's plan that your child died", is something said to lessen the blow of the loss of the child and quite disingenuous/deceitful (if you really thought about it). I understand that it is a quick move that would make certain people feel better.
You want a world without pain. But pain is a duality that cannot exist without an opposite and the depths of pain are defined by the heights of happiness (and vice versa). Mountains exist because of valleys. They need each other. And the creation of one necessitates the existence of the other.
Having said that, pain is the result not of God's plan, but rather the result of our own willfulness and pride which was first exhibited in the narrative of the Garden. That willful pride that longs to put ourselves in the throne of God will always lead to pain, either in the short or long run.
And as such, pain is a useful part of society. Pain places markers up for us. We know things which are dangerous or bad because of the existence of pain. At times, it delineates the difference between profitable and unprofitable. Other times, it separates hero from ordinary. And other times, it marks off the difference between good and evil. It is not pleasant, but it is part of human life. It's fun to play philosophical games with, especially in the context of theology. But it's not an altogether serious proposition to pretend our world, as it exists, could exist without it.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:27 pm to Old Sarge
quote:
At this point you are just trolling to make 808 upset
I doubt it. He left his faith for a personal reason. Backing into the reason for leaving the faith later on is pretty common - post hoc justifications. It's likely he hasn't fully faced his own personal reasons for leaving.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:34 pm to the808bass
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He left his faith for a personal reason
He's already demonstrated that he doesn't understand the concept of faith. So I doubt he ever had it. He may have participated in religion but he doesn't seem to understand the difference.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:36 pm to Old Sarge
I'd agree that there seems to be a serious deficit of depth in his understanding of Christianity. But professions of faith are individual and I'm more than willing to err on the side of grace there.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:41 pm to the808bass
Where have you seen his profession of faith in the past? Another thread?
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:45 pm to the808bass
quote:
Sure. It might
Thanks.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:47 pm to Old Sarge
I suggest he read Chapter 4 of the AA Big Book titled We Agnostics
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:47 pm to Old Sarge
I didn't dissect it. He said he had been a Christian ITT. I presupposed a profession of faith, admittedly.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:53 pm to the808bass
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You want a world without pain.
No, I don't. I've explained my position on this.
quote:
But pain is a duality that cannot exist without an opposite and the depths of pain are defined by the heights of happiness (and vice versa)
Based on what? You state this as if it is a fact. In terms of human experience, you could have all pain or all pleasure if something is a little off in the brain (depression, bipolar 2, etc.).
quote:
Having said that, pain is the result not of God's plan, but rather the result of our own willfulness and pride which was first exhibited in the narrative of the Garden. That willful pride that longs to put ourselves in the throne of God will always lead to pain, either in the short or long run.
Original sin. Another idea I don't accept.
quote:
And as such, pain is a useful part of society. Pain places markers up for us. We know things which are dangerous or bad because of the existence of pain. At times, it delineates the difference between profitable and unprofitable. Other times, it separates hero from ordinary. And other times, it marks off the difference between good and evil. It is not pleasant, but it is part of human life. It's fun to play philosophical games with, especially in the context of theology. But it's not an altogether serious proposition to pretend our world, as it exists, could exist without it.
Of course or world, as it exists, couldn't exist without pain. It would be an entirely different world. I'm afraid that you're still misunderstanding my point. Could be my fault, I'm not sure. I'm not lobbying for a painless world. I'm simply proposing that the presence of such deep pain speaks to the lack of intervention that "god" must take in our lives (if it is a loving, caring god). I know you disagree, though.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:55 pm to the808bass
quote:
He left his faith for a personal reason.
Because it could no longer fit in with what I knew about the world. It never really made sense to me, anyway. I was just going back due to the raw emotion I experienced. It was a slow process of letting go.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:57 pm to Old Sarge
quote:
He's already demonstrated that he doesn't understand the concept of faith.
Sure I do. And I did have it. I'd appreciate you just asking specific questions about my thoughts/opinions instead of assuming you know. I know you Christians can't help but assume you know things, though.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 12:58 pm to the808bass
quote:
I'd agree that there seems to be a serious deficit of depth in his understanding of Christianity.
Oh, please. I've been around Christians my entire life. My best friend is the best Christian I know.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 1:02 pm to rbWarEagle
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Based on what? You state this as if it is a fact.
You are certainly qualified to diagnose this.
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Another idea I don't accept.
No one asked if you accepted it. You're not the arbiter.
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I'm simply proposing that the presence of such deep pain speaks to the lack of intervention that "god" must take in our lives (if it is a loving, caring god).
Of course I disagree. And it's because of examining the issue from many perspectives. Not for a lack of it. Good luck on your journey.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 1:03 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
I've been around Christians my entire life. My best friend is the best Christian I know.
Ask him if you have a serious deficit of understanding of Christianity. Hopefully he can help you there.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 1:05 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
Because it could no longer fit in with what I knew about the world.
That's what every atheist/agnostic says. Pick up a few emotions and turn them over and the answer usually becomes apparent. Just my experience.
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