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re: 11 Time World Series Champions - St. Louis Cardinals
Posted on 6/16/15 at 7:56 pm to KCM0Tiger
Posted on 6/16/15 at 7:56 pm to KCM0Tiger
quote:
That's inaccurate. From what I understand, Jeff Luhnow was one of the chief designers of the system while with the Cardinals. He implemented the same system when he went to the Astros. He didn't "steal" anything...he created it.
Well thats not completely true either. Im not saying Iknow anything. Nobody does at this point. However, a Cardinal employee using Cardinal equipment on salaried time while creating said "system" "algorithm" "software" "database" whatever muddies the waters quite a bit on the topic of ownership.
Like I said, Im not saying its the case as I dont know the details of his employment with the Cardinals but EVERYONE speaking in absolutes right now regarding the whole thing is just speculating outside rudimentry deatails provided thus far.
Could be the Cards cheated and it came from the top. If thats the case, fire the whole front office and start over. Could be a disgruntled scout that was mad at luhnow, fire him and put in safe guards against such nonsense in the future. Could have been Luhnow took some proprietary info from the Cards when he left and it was some retribution.
I dont know. Im hoping it was just a wayward employee but will accept that there will need to be hard changes and punishments if it ends up being an organizational mandate to hack the Astros systems.
This post was edited on 6/16/15 at 8:24 pm
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Posted on 6/16/15 at 8:01 pm to kilo
Safe to say Lunhow and Mozeliak won't be making any trades with one another for a very long time.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 10:23 pm to JesusQuintana
quote:
I'm seeing it ITT already. Not all, but most. It's a very natural fan reaction.
I think there's a difference between cracking a joke and seriously thinking that there was nothing wrong done. Just how wrong has yet to be determined.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 10:25 pm to CRDNLSCHMCPSN11
quote:
Would have thought Mozeliak would not have permitted this to happen.
I miss something? Has it come out that Mo knew anything at all much less permitted it to happen? Might turn out to be the case but I'm wondering if I missed something.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 10:27 pm to JesusQuintana
quote:
Yawn...I knew that response was coming. If you are aware of a better place to get a large sampling of cards fans I'm all ears.
Come to St. Louis. Everyone obviously hopes that the wrong doesn't go too deep or too bad but everyone, almost to a person, believes that who ever had a hand in it, should and will have their heads on a block. Most think it's a black mark on a great organization and an embarrassment. Not sure what else you want.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 10:30 pm to KCM0Tiger
quote:
That's inaccurate. From what I understand, Jeff Luhnow was one of the chief designers of the system while with the Cardinals. He implemented the same system when he went to the Astros. He didn't "steal" anything...he created it.
Hate to tell you, it's not that easy. Neither you nor I know unless we've read his employment contract. It's not unusual that if you are working for Monsanto and create some new pesticide, Monsanto owns that, not the inventor. It all depends on how his contract was drafted.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 10:31 pm to CRDNLSCHMCPSN11
quote:
Not really putting this all on him, but would think the GM would have some sort of pulse what is happening within the front office and scouting department.I don't work for the team, so maybe I'm overreacting.
Could be he knew. Could be that it was some young punk that thought it would be funny to embarrass Luhnow or however you spell it by leaking internal emails. I haven't heard anywhere as of yet that anything was ever used to gain an advantage. My guess, and it's just a guess, Mo and others all learned about it the same way we did, with the Deadspin article.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 10:33 pm to kilo
quote:
Could be the Cards cheated and it came from the top. If thats the case, fire the whole front office and start over.
Ummmm, you're not doing it right. Cards fans are supposed to be making light of it and minimizing things.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 11:16 pm to reedus23
I didn't mean to drop the hammer on him.But I would think he would have some idea if some of his employees held some grudge against Lunhow.Maybe I'm making too much of it though.
Posted on 6/16/15 at 11:18 pm to CRDNLSCHMCPSN11
Posted on 6/16/15 at 11:22 pm to reedus23
You could be right about that.I shouldn't make too much of it yet and let everything play out.Just disappointed the team is caught up in this.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 12:36 am to CRDNLSCHMCPSN11
quote:
I didn't mean to drop the hammer on him.But I would think he would have some idea if some of his employees held some grudge against Lunhow.Maybe I'm making too much of it though.
Maybe, maybe not. I think a lot of people held grudges against Lunhow. It was no secret that there was animosity among some. Whether Mo knew that it resulted in this has yet to be determined. You could end up being right. I hope not.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 12:40 am to JesusQuintana
quote:
Probably best case scenario at this point
LINK
Yepp. That's what they've been reporting all afternoon here in St. Louis. Some have talked about it being an intern but I don't know if that's speculation or if they're passing on information they've learned without sourcing it. I doubt it's an intern but that's what some are saying.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 12:42 am to CRDNLSCHMCPSN11
quote:
You could be right about that.I shouldn't make too much of it yet and let everything play out.Just disappointed the team is caught up in this.
It is disappointing and embarrassing but one rogue employee or even 2 do not define the entire organization. Let's just hope that that's all it was.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 6:33 am to reedus23
I hate to hear all this stuff. No matter the outcome, it still does a certain amount od damage that only time takes care of.
This is going to uave the possibility of being punishment two fold. If, and I say if, the FBI finds wrong doing and that would result in a trial of those involved, then you have MLB probably come in and take a monetary penalty and possibly trade or draft opportunities away from the cards for a period of time. It could be enough to set the team back a few years down the road if the current prospects don't pan out.
Again, this would be a worse case scenerio. Best case is the FBI finds nothing substantial to keep going with the investigation and this all goes away. With the FBI, I don't see this. There is something there. It's a matter of how far they and the Astros want to take it. Maybe the cards could work out something with the Astros and try to keep it on a private level.
Hope it works out. I hate to see an organization like this get raked over the coals. I think this is getting way more attention than it diserves.
This is going to uave the possibility of being punishment two fold. If, and I say if, the FBI finds wrong doing and that would result in a trial of those involved, then you have MLB probably come in and take a monetary penalty and possibly trade or draft opportunities away from the cards for a period of time. It could be enough to set the team back a few years down the road if the current prospects don't pan out.
Again, this would be a worse case scenerio. Best case is the FBI finds nothing substantial to keep going with the investigation and this all goes away. With the FBI, I don't see this. There is something there. It's a matter of how far they and the Astros want to take it. Maybe the cards could work out something with the Astros and try to keep it on a private level.
Hope it works out. I hate to see an organization like this get raked over the coals. I think this is getting way more attention than it diserves.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 7:47 am to jafo
I don't think you can say this is not serious. For now it would appear to be a rogue employee (or employees) who didn't like Luhnow, but however high up the food chain this goes, heads need to roll. We aren't the Patriots. Own it and do the right things. That too is part of the Cardinal Way.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 10:16 am to kilo
My rant on the the alleged "hacking". Let's first look at some background on this issue. Luhnow left the Cardinals after the 2011 season, when he left he may or may not have taken scouting intelligence on players from the Cardinals organization. This is like stealing corporate secrets from a business and giving them to your new employer. Luhnow also took a few vital people with him from the organization, including the guy who built the software/database that the Cardinals use for analyzing and storing information on players. In Houston this same software/database was built(brought/copied/ported/remade), including the same passwords(makes me think it was straight copied). A new name was slapped on it and boom the Astros had all of the Cardinals scouting reports and analytics.
Now, let's assume that multiple people in the Cardinals organization played vital roles in developing this system, which is most likely the case. When they got word that Luhnow was using the same software they more likely than not, felt extremely jaded and upset about it. A few novices, probably low level employees(why else would multiple employees live at the same address), got the great idea to "get back at Luhnow" and "hacked" into his database. Upon gaining access to this they decided to leak the documents to deadspin in order to hurt Luhnow's chances of rebuilding the Astros.
Now, for how this is being branded as cheating and worse than deflategate, I have a question. If you wanted to steal another teams scouting reports, which you probably already have, everyone uses tape for gods sake and the Cardinals are using an IDENTICAL software to analyze players, why on earth would you release it to the media? If your sole purpose was to gain a competitive advantage on the HOUSTON ASTROS you would not divulge the information, you would keep it secret and not let the Astros know you could sneak into their system and spy on them. The truth will come out soon and more likely than not, it will be a case of some jaded low level IT guys or analytical guys who wanted to hurt Luhnow's organization, not give the Cardinals any kind of "advantage", whatever that might have been. Those individuals will be punished and we can all move on from this.
I could be wrong, but as an IT person myself, this seems to be the most likely scenario. If Luhnow redeveloped the software from scratch I really doubt he would have had his IT people use the same admin/master passwords when they created it. Then again, he might just be a computer dumbass.
Now, let's assume that multiple people in the Cardinals organization played vital roles in developing this system, which is most likely the case. When they got word that Luhnow was using the same software they more likely than not, felt extremely jaded and upset about it. A few novices, probably low level employees(why else would multiple employees live at the same address), got the great idea to "get back at Luhnow" and "hacked" into his database. Upon gaining access to this they decided to leak the documents to deadspin in order to hurt Luhnow's chances of rebuilding the Astros.
Now, for how this is being branded as cheating and worse than deflategate, I have a question. If you wanted to steal another teams scouting reports, which you probably already have, everyone uses tape for gods sake and the Cardinals are using an IDENTICAL software to analyze players, why on earth would you release it to the media? If your sole purpose was to gain a competitive advantage on the HOUSTON ASTROS you would not divulge the information, you would keep it secret and not let the Astros know you could sneak into their system and spy on them. The truth will come out soon and more likely than not, it will be a case of some jaded low level IT guys or analytical guys who wanted to hurt Luhnow's organization, not give the Cardinals any kind of "advantage", whatever that might have been. Those individuals will be punished and we can all move on from this.
I could be wrong, but as an IT person myself, this seems to be the most likely scenario. If Luhnow redeveloped the software from scratch I really doubt he would have had his IT people use the same admin/master passwords when they created it. Then again, he might just be a computer dumbass.
This post was edited on 6/17/15 at 10:19 am
Posted on 6/17/15 at 11:07 am to TigerCruise
The more I read into this story, the more I am inclined to believe it was a couple of spurned employees trying to get some sort of vengeance on Lunhow.
The rub will be if anyone higher up was informed of the breach and failed to report it to the proper authorities. There always seems to be a paper trail for these sorts of things, so if anyone was complicit, it should be relatively easy to discover whom, and to what level.
I don't believe this gave the Cards any sort of magical competitive advantage, even if this was instigated at the highest levels. The Cards do their own work, and they seem pretty happy with the results, I'm not sure how digging around the Astros scouting reports would help them, I'm sure they have their own reports.
Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait this out and see what the investigation yields. My only real concern is that this doesn't trickle down to the field. It can be easy to lose focus when all anyone is asking the players and staff about is something that's way over their heads.
Give it a couple weeks, the ADHD crowd will find something else to pay attention to, most of the same folks that were chastising the organization yesterday have moved on to chastising Lebron today. The world is a strange place.
The rub will be if anyone higher up was informed of the breach and failed to report it to the proper authorities. There always seems to be a paper trail for these sorts of things, so if anyone was complicit, it should be relatively easy to discover whom, and to what level.
I don't believe this gave the Cards any sort of magical competitive advantage, even if this was instigated at the highest levels. The Cards do their own work, and they seem pretty happy with the results, I'm not sure how digging around the Astros scouting reports would help them, I'm sure they have their own reports.
Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait this out and see what the investigation yields. My only real concern is that this doesn't trickle down to the field. It can be easy to lose focus when all anyone is asking the players and staff about is something that's way over their heads.
Give it a couple weeks, the ADHD crowd will find something else to pay attention to, most of the same folks that were chastising the organization yesterday have moved on to chastising Lebron today. The world is a strange place.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 12:22 pm to Stir of Echoes
Not here to fan the flames, but if the FBI is involved it is a big deal. There is no way around that fact. I hope the Cards get it figured out and wipe out the person(s) responsible.
You guys know I am a Royals fan, but the Cards being good is also good for baseball as a whole. So here's to hoping they get it figured out, and soon.
You guys know I am a Royals fan, but the Cards being good is also good for baseball as a whole. So here's to hoping they get it figured out, and soon.
Posted on 6/17/15 at 12:58 pm to everytrueson
If it plays out as it sounds like it will, that some idiots decided to try to embarrass Lunhow by leaking his emails and nothing more, then it will be a big deal when talking about whoever did it. Not the worst thing in the world, but for them a big deal. If that's how it plays out, I don't know that it will be a big deal for the organization itself.
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