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re: 2017 Revisited
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:24 am to reel_gator8
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:24 am to reel_gator8
It's almost pointless to argue about the 2017 recruiting class until after signing day.
1
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:44 am to gatordmb89
quote:
The current class looks weak on paper in terms of depth, but it also isn't NSD. Also, you don't need CBs with a ton of experience.
UF's base personnel is a 4-2-5, only 2 LB's play 80+ percent of the time. Anzalone may come back there, and if so, that's more than enough.
DT is the lone position I'm worried about from a numbers perspective. You go into next year with Clark, Bryan, Riles, and Polite. Need to sign 2-3 FR this year.
Good points but it seems LB would still need numbers given the injury rate.
Separate topic not to hijack - I wonder if anyone here can give insight into UF's strength program and its relative quality - for a separate thread of course. I don't have sources in or close to the program as I once did.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 9:14 am to reel_gator8
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Wrong....UF I dont have to admit this. TJ has loosely tied some info that suit his agenda...very nice...except he is wrong in so many ways.
You can admit it implicitly or explicitly. If you fail to refute his arguments, then you've done it implicitly.
If you and others want to shut him down - refute his points. Demonstrate the fallacious nature of his thinking rather than just tell us all how you want to kick his arse.
Let me illustrate below some problems I have:
quote:
1) first of all NONE of us know what is going to happen by NSD...its early Feb you know.
Not a relevant point, UNLESS, you wish to forbid discussion on recruiting until nsd. Since you keep participating that does not seem to be the case. But the data we have today is the only data that can go into the discussions.
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2) TJs slanted view on our woes are offcourse
Not an argument.
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our defense is going to be good in 2017 despite his claims to the contrary.
also not an argument
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Gardner is not going to be most experience starter as a DB. We have Washington, Marcell Harris, Gardner back. Putu was redshirted as I recall and was highly rated as a JUCO.
solid point
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LBs we are good...not a lot of depth but Reese, Joseph , Kylan Johnson & Anzalone are a good core to start with...we also have Moon who was r/sed.
You list 5 people in a 4-2-5 scheme which seems to be 250% of what's needed on the field at one time, yet you call this thin. Here I don't see support for your positions. We already saw that UF's starting LBs were out due to injury so depth is a legit concern. Also given the offensive woes and time of position issues, depth is again an issue. Only two ways to fix this: have 5 guys that are all close to starter quality or find a way to beef up the depth. At best here, you turn TJ's concern into a 50-50 proposition that the current LB situation plus current LB recruiting will be sufficient.
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DL? I think Caleb Brantley returns as a senior when he gets his possible draft evaluation...remember that Bullard...who was better imo was only a third rounder.
3rd round money is a pretty good way to make a living and Caleb will definitely find a roster in the NFL. Would be great if he stays but I don't think it's prudent to count on that.
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CeCe, Bryan (who will be improved and has a motor), Sherit, Zuniga, Cox jr, Davis, Clayton, Polite, Clark....thats 10 not counting Justus Reed. Polite played as true frosh and ditto Clayton so we should see improvement. The sky isnt falling. Clark is 325 and will be a junior. Bryan is as big as Brantley.
For DL by my count, 11 are either FR or SO.
Now that makes me feel better. I thought UF was much thinner than that. TJ's concerns for DL may be misplaced here unless there are serious issues about the mix between DL and DE or quality.
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Offense? 10 starters back and a lot of upside. What I liked seeing was the games against LSU & Bama when our OL flexed some muscle and we ran the ball quite well at times and pass protected decently in spite of Bamas shutting down our run game after 1st qt.
There's a bit of depth on OL.
Lot of bodies but quality is an issue. One good half against LSU and some good pass blocking against Bama is not enough when you take the other games into consideration. OL play must be consistent. With 20 on the roster but line play as poor as it has been and the likelihood of 3 starters finishing up next year, I am inclined to want OL being recruited.
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WRs Dre Massey (inj r/s), Cleveland , Calloway, Hammond and Swain gives us hope in 2017 to have better offense. OL is stacked. We have stout RBs and QB play should be mended imo.
Hope is not a method. You can cling to it all you want but it doesn't count for anything other than a self-made placebo. I concede hope and optimism are beneficial when you are dealing with the impact of your mindset upon your actions. When you are dealing with the assessment of something other, then it is worthless as a prognostic device.
OL stacked with what? Depth or quality or both? Prior performance suggests quality is lacking. Why do you assume QB play to be amended? I'm assuming the same thing as I mentioned previously. But there's really very little to suggest high probability of that. The weight of evidence gives slightly more credence to past performance of the coaching staff coming through to produce good qB play than the last two years suggests. But again, we're talking 51%, just barely tipping the scales for this.
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So unless TJ has 10 mil in his pockets to donate...yeah Mac will be here through 2018 whether he likes it or not.
You may be right about 2018 but think about this: if you had 10 mil and watched the offense stumble for 7 yrs now, the last two with an alleged offensive guru, what would you do with that money and what conditions would you attach to giving it away? That's a lot of coin.
After walking the dog on this a bit more, his pessimism on recruiting may not be so strongly warranted. But in no way have you produced an argument to strongly suggest its in great shape or that things are stacked in any way except in terms of numbers. Saying 10 returners on offense seems great until you remember the offense is like 120th right now.
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Its just crazy to think he would be let go after 3 years if we go at least 8-4...we would owe him 3 yrs at about 14 mil? Thats a lotta cheese. We still have to pay 2 mil to Muschamp next year.
All good points but they can be looked at in different ways. Is Muschamp still owed money now that he has another head coaching gig?
Big money people are still likely to only want to give money to a winning endeavor. They may be more inclined to pay a buyout and "get a winner" than to contribute to facility upgrades if they feel the program is still so far away from winning at a high level that more upgrades will be due before that occurs. This is why the arms race in college football is so potentially destructive. The fact we now have a generation of kids that have to be catered to with majestic fountains and juice bars and lounges is rather pathetic. Now that the playoff has told us conference titles are meaningless, how long will it be before fans say screw it and stop showing up after the first loss of the year, and disappear altogether after the second even though conference championships are still attainable? Where is that upgrade money coming from if the fans go away and stop paying $10 for a bottle of Gatorade?
We have quite the cycle in CFB right now, between results, money, facilities, and talent; and it doesn't feel like a healthy one.
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LSU poisoned themselves
Joe Alleva is the hemlock that LSU keeps ingesting. He's a legit retard. Seriously. If they were located in a state with other schools that athletic program would be on death's doorstep right now. It's astounding people like Alleva rise to such positions.
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You are right if you are a non believer UF that hope is just that ....hope. Its why we get up every morning and go to work. Its good to have hope.
You go to work because of the explicit quid pro quo arrangement of do-something-get-something.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 9:45 am to UF
I have an issue with the recruiting this year, mostly because it's impossible to only have one commit during the season. Mac and the staff have a lot of work to do between now and NSD. They have proven the ability to close (as I'll explain in this post), but it's a little unnerving that we only have 13 guys in this class and nobody at our biggest position of need, DT.
Where I get pissed with TJ's criticism of Macs recruiting is when he says how terrible Mac is after two and a half years. That's his was of over embellishing how long Mac has been here to try to further his point of how terrible Macs recruiting is. When you dig deeper, you see that when Mac took over on December 4th, 2014, he inherited the 121st ranked recruiting class. He managed to salvage that class by closing with two 5 stars, 4 stars Jordan Scarlett and Cronkrite, and several other 3 and 4 star guys to get the 21st ranked recruiting class. It was really a remarkable finish to the class considering the hand he was delt and only having a month to build relationships because of the dead period in December.
Last years class finished ranked 12th, but we got commitments from players that were in positions of need. We got the best kicker in the country, a solid group of wide receivers, the #1 ranked running back, the #2 defensive end, and several "3 star" guys that played well above their ranking out of high school (i.e. Jawaan Taylor, Lamical Perine, David Reese, Vosean Joseph, etc). So even though the class ranking wasn't particularly great, it filled a lot of needs for us and it gave us some quality players in key spots.
That's all we have to judge Mac off of in recruiting. One full cycle and one month. We can discuss this class, but it will be incomplete until signing day. It's shaky right now, the class is ranked 20th, but it appears that a lot of our biggest targets are still available or guys we're trying to flip. Criticizing this class to this point is fair, but it is taking it too far to call for his job and to freak out because of where the class is right now, before the early enrollment period and over two months before signing day. That's where I and others get so frustrated with TJ. He doesn't credit the staff for what they've been able to accomplish and do, but he is first in line to criticize everything whether it is warranted or not. Mac has to get better on the trail, but it's fair to say that he knows that and it's apparent from all the reports that the whole staff is recruiting their butts off right now, traveling all over the country bolstering the Gator brand and convincing kids how great it is to be a Gator
Giving up on the staff because of recruiting just shows that TJ is hyperventilating and freaking out over something he thinks is a huge problem. Although it has potential to be a problem, there's still a chance for the staff to improve this class and for him to dismiss that in favor of "the recruiting sucks, it'll never get better, this staff will be fired in the middle of next season because we suck so bad" makes me question him as a fan because it is so dramatic and doesn't have any consideration or perspective for what Mac has had to deal with, from the class he inherited ranked 121st, to 6 OL his first spring, to his QB getting busted for roids, to being forced to start two cast offs at QB this year. And despite all that, making it to the SECCG in two rebuilding years for the offense. Saying he's going to lose his job in the middle of next year is baffling and laughable.
Where I get pissed with TJ's criticism of Macs recruiting is when he says how terrible Mac is after two and a half years. That's his was of over embellishing how long Mac has been here to try to further his point of how terrible Macs recruiting is. When you dig deeper, you see that when Mac took over on December 4th, 2014, he inherited the 121st ranked recruiting class. He managed to salvage that class by closing with two 5 stars, 4 stars Jordan Scarlett and Cronkrite, and several other 3 and 4 star guys to get the 21st ranked recruiting class. It was really a remarkable finish to the class considering the hand he was delt and only having a month to build relationships because of the dead period in December.
Last years class finished ranked 12th, but we got commitments from players that were in positions of need. We got the best kicker in the country, a solid group of wide receivers, the #1 ranked running back, the #2 defensive end, and several "3 star" guys that played well above their ranking out of high school (i.e. Jawaan Taylor, Lamical Perine, David Reese, Vosean Joseph, etc). So even though the class ranking wasn't particularly great, it filled a lot of needs for us and it gave us some quality players in key spots.
That's all we have to judge Mac off of in recruiting. One full cycle and one month. We can discuss this class, but it will be incomplete until signing day. It's shaky right now, the class is ranked 20th, but it appears that a lot of our biggest targets are still available or guys we're trying to flip. Criticizing this class to this point is fair, but it is taking it too far to call for his job and to freak out because of where the class is right now, before the early enrollment period and over two months before signing day. That's where I and others get so frustrated with TJ. He doesn't credit the staff for what they've been able to accomplish and do, but he is first in line to criticize everything whether it is warranted or not. Mac has to get better on the trail, but it's fair to say that he knows that and it's apparent from all the reports that the whole staff is recruiting their butts off right now, traveling all over the country bolstering the Gator brand and convincing kids how great it is to be a Gator
Giving up on the staff because of recruiting just shows that TJ is hyperventilating and freaking out over something he thinks is a huge problem. Although it has potential to be a problem, there's still a chance for the staff to improve this class and for him to dismiss that in favor of "the recruiting sucks, it'll never get better, this staff will be fired in the middle of next season because we suck so bad" makes me question him as a fan because it is so dramatic and doesn't have any consideration or perspective for what Mac has had to deal with, from the class he inherited ranked 121st, to 6 OL his first spring, to his QB getting busted for roids, to being forced to start two cast offs at QB this year. And despite all that, making it to the SECCG in two rebuilding years for the offense. Saying he's going to lose his job in the middle of next year is baffling and laughable.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 9:53 am to atlgator
The biggest and the most fair criticism right now is that the staff has been unable, to date, to fill big holes on defense at key positions of need.
Last year it was CB.
This year it is DT.
If they miss on DT this year it will be an unmitigated disaster. So they have some work to do before NSD.
Last year it was CB.
This year it is DT.
If they miss on DT this year it will be an unmitigated disaster. So they have some work to do before NSD.
This post was edited on 12/7/16 at 9:56 am
Posted on 12/7/16 at 10:37 am to slayerxing
My counter to this would be that our big need last year was wide receiver and kicker and we got four 4 star receivers and the best kicker in the country.
This year I would say our biggest needs are DB and DT, and were probably going to land 6 DBs and 5 of them be "blue chips". DT is where the staff has their work cut out for them and hopefully they will find a way to get some guys on campus and committed.
This year I would say our biggest needs are DB and DT, and were probably going to land 6 DBs and 5 of them be "blue chips". DT is where the staff has their work cut out for them and hopefully they will find a way to get some guys on campus and committed.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 10:43 am to atlgator
That isn't a counter. I said on defense. The offensive recruiting has been fine.
UF needed DB's last year and mostly struck out.
They have course corrected at DB this year. They still need more actually.
If they miss at DT this year, that will set the program back on defense so far I hate to even think about it.
UF needed DB's last year and mostly struck out.
They have course corrected at DB this year. They still need more actually.
If they miss at DT this year, that will set the program back on defense so far I hate to even think about it.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 1:25 pm to slayerxing
The one thing I will say about Mac's recruiting is we usually finish well. Of course we don't start off so hot, so there's that. 
Posted on 12/7/16 at 1:46 pm to bigDgator
UF is historically tight lipped about recruiting...we try to fly under the radar and keep it close to the vest...they dont need to tell us anything..why should they? Keep your rivals guessing.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 1:48 pm to UF
quote:
CeCe, Bryan (who will be improved and has a motor), Sherit, Zuniga, Cox jr, Davis, Clayton, Polite, Clark....thats 10 not counting Justus Reed. Polite played as true frosh and ditto Clayton so we should see improvement. The sky isnt falling. Clark is 325 and will be a junior. Bryan is as big as Brantley.
From my counting that is 9 and 10 if you count reed. We have a guy on roster last name Palmore who is a sophomore this year. Cox was also a senior this year not sure if he has another year of eligibility since he played all 4 years. Sherit is a JR. That leaves us with 10 one being a guy no one has heard of.
A lot of our defensive predictions for next year are predictions based on people that have never played in the secondary. Harris played well, Washington was good at points got beat several times. Gardner showed inexperience at times but did good filling in. But besides that we are basing it on assumptions that these guys will play well. Thompson was a great JUCO RB how did that pan out. We got one guy coming back from ACL surgery who knows how he will recover.
It is fact that our defense got gashed on the ground when we had to play our young guys against teams that can run the ball.
You can say good coaching can makeup for low talent and bad recruiting all day. But the fact is FSU has finished with a top 3 class the last 3 years same thing with Bama. You have to recruit to compete with these teams. We cant keep losing our instate battle. The IMG academy recently put a photo of all the coaches that visited them at one point. Guess which team wasn't on the list. We cant let IMG be a pipeline to FSU.
One of the Gator beat writers wrote this based on current coaching and recruiting "Good coaches that can recruit can bring in good recruits regardless of wins or winning against good teams can do it and right now we have neither."
With that being said I think Mac can turn it around and honestly if we come in and win an SEC title next year or make it again beating FSU and Michigan I think we can make another great run because it could jumpstart everything including recruiting. You can sell vision and the process all day but eventually you get Butch Jones.
This post was edited on 12/7/16 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 12/7/16 at 2:13 pm to gatorbait_007
I think once we get a consistant QB the team will take off. The weapons are there for this offense to put up some points.
Posted on 12/7/16 at 7:58 pm to gatorbait_007
quote:
gatorbait_007
I actually was counting Brantley also and Cox is a sr , my bad...although maybe he gets sixth year awarded due to the amount of time he was injured this year? I know he isnt a high draft pick at all and if the staff tries...he might get another year to play which would be great.
Putu was redshirted as far as I know and you are correct about Thompson being a highly rated RB out of JUCO. I sang his praises and so far have been off....but doesnt mean Putu is the same.
Im still on the train that thinks the defense will be good next year...not quite as good as this and last years editions...but good. Its too bad we cant have offense and defense mesh at the same time...but at least the offense could be better and help the defense as it grows. We have 7 home games to help us.
Posted on 12/8/16 at 12:26 pm to TJGator1215
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7-5 and Mac is fired mid year after starting 3-4. We don't have any DTs for the 3rd straight class and defensive recruiting has been poor. Imo the offense will sputter and the defense won't be good enough to save us.
Posted on 12/8/16 at 5:23 pm to UF
quote:
UF
Jesus H. Christ UF...you quote my sentences line by line and sound like an accountant...amirite? Everything isnt black and white in my world and I always hated math...but loved English language arts and journalism etc etc This is a joke btw...dont take it seriously.
The problem with TJ is that it is non stop bashing and I mean non stop. If I wanted that in my ear Id head to the Rant. I respectfully disagree that I havent refuted his views which bashing in my colorful world.
None of us do know what will happen to our recruiting by NSD ...and thats black n white in your world. WHY bash the staff now when its not a finished product? If you saw a baker rolling dough slowly...how can you bash his product til its out of the oven? Discussion is fine but bashing isnt.
I never claimed that our LB was sufficient...in fact I stated "not a lot of depth"...but my point was not to jump off a bridge. And you are correct that we utilize a dime package often and LBs arent needed as much then, but of course on run downs we need three.
I prefaced my opinion that Brantley might stay with " I think" and while you may be entitled to say it is not prudent to count on it...I am not just thinking with my heart. He may get draft status listing him as a mid round pick...3-5th and thats not promising.
Again Bullard stayed for his senior for probably same reason and was drafted 3 rd as a SENIOR and from my eyes...Bullard was more of a potential impact player. MacCallister left after junior yr. made bad mistake doing so. The NFL doesnt love, it uses its players as employees. Hopefully he makes wise decision.
These kids often dont realize that they are only a misstep from driving a Pepsi truck route.
And yes Muschamp has been receiving 2 mil a year and will also get paid next year...coaching position or not..so he received the money while DC at AU also. The money alone would or should give us pause before doing anything rash. The only way he would be dismissed before his 4th year? Be guilty of a scandal or go 3-9. Not happening hoss. He has done good things and projects an image we can be proud of and wants to do things the right way and have his players successful at life. If we go 7-5 next year he will still be here in 2018...and thats a fact imo. But we arent going 7-5...how about 11-1?
Posted on 12/9/16 at 10:56 am to reel_gator8
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But we arent going 7-5...how about 11-1?
You said 11-1 last season too.
Posted on 12/9/16 at 11:48 am to reel_gator8
quote:
UF is historically tight lipped about recruiting...we try to fly under the radar and keep it close to the vest...they dont need to tell us anything..why should they? Keep your rivals guessing.
No one really knows what is going on because most of the UF writers do not have sources within the program.
Posted on 12/9/16 at 4:58 pm to HinesvilleThrill
quote:
HinesvilleThrill
quote:
You said 11-1 last season too.
Dont confuse me with facts HT damn it.
I also stated that Mark Thompson was going to a beast and be an elite back...oh well.
Our offense wasnt as productive as I thought and the loss to UT was not expected by me...Arkie was and I thought the girls school might be a W. Injuries played a part of it against the last few opponents...but we didnt give up like we did against Arkie at least.
But I will still predict 11-1 because I see a lot of promise in our OL for next year mainly....and in our WRs and RBs. We we really need a TE like Nauta...could we borrow him for this year?
Our TEs have not blocked well imo.Posted on 12/9/16 at 5:50 pm to reel_gator8
11 - 1 next season that would be nice but after we get ripped in half by Michigan I do not think we win 11 straight.
Anyone have any clue how we win 11 with LDR as starting QB
Anyone have any clue how we win 11 with LDR as starting QB
Posted on 12/9/16 at 6:35 pm to reel_gator8
Do you really believe that UF will go 11-1 next year ? Seems like you say it every year and when the team goes 8-3 your ok with it. You should be more pissed about how the team has played this year then any of us.
Posted on 12/9/16 at 11:29 pm to tjv305
quote:
tjv305
Well that is exaggerated some tjv...only the past couple of years have I predicted 11-1...but why not? A large part of my optimism is due to our schedule. UK, USC & Mizzou are only road games with UGA in Jax. Mac has been pretty good at home and have lost only 1 game in 2 years.
No, of course Im not happy with our 8-4 record, but I see improvement ahead. I based last year off LDRs performance in our spring game. The injury really did affect him more than folks realize...not just the physical part...but the mental part. He would not be the first QB to suffer an injury and regress.
I think our overall team, offense, defense and special teams will be very good. Basing the idea of 2017 because we return 10 starters and all of the OL who I believe will show definite improvement. It an opinion and I dont mind opinions that differ, as long as it isnt personal or bashing the coaching staff all the time. I disagree with some of the things Slayer states and even my optimistic friend Atl...but they show love for the Gators and Im down with that.
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