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247 Thread regarding our Current Recruiting class
Posted on 8/8/17 at 6:18 am
Posted on 8/8/17 at 6:18 am
As I mentioned in the main 2018 Recruiting thread, JC over at 247 talked to a few guys in the recruiting industry regarding our class and this is what was said. The point being that while there are a lot of 3* right now, that it isn't believed it will end that way.
1) Our class is "sneakily good", sources words not mine, with several players looking at getting ratings bumps for various reasons. Deshaun Fenwick RB hadn't attended a lot of camps so his skill set wasn't widely known in the recruiting world. Ronnie Jamison WR was a QB in high school, has grown 2-3 inches since then and made the position change and only has limited tape so rating him any higher than a 3* at this point just wasn't going to happen. Jonathan Gipson was regarded as being an obvious 4* so should have his rating reflected going forward.
2) The ratings themselves, at this point in their football careers and before, are really only meant to be an estimate of where they will eventually be ranked in the final rankings before NSD. Kids move up and down as more information about what they can do and projections on what they could become are made. One example given was that SC's own Pro Bowler Carlos Dunlap was rated as a 3* before a final ratings increase.
3) with the way that they are going about recruiting, digging under rocks and kicking the tires on every prospect they can find within Muschamp's 5 hour driving distance, our staff is simply ahead of the recruiting industry in evaluating talent. Example given here was this cycle's LB Channing Tindall. Muschamp offered 3 months before any other major program and the guy is now rated, I believe, as the #1 OLB in this class.
4) A guy that has not only followed recruiting as a whole but specifically in the state of SC stated that with every class there is going to be 1 or 2 blue chippers from our state that don't pan out and there there is typically 1 or 2 3*stars that end up playing on Sunday.
1) Our class is "sneakily good", sources words not mine, with several players looking at getting ratings bumps for various reasons. Deshaun Fenwick RB hadn't attended a lot of camps so his skill set wasn't widely known in the recruiting world. Ronnie Jamison WR was a QB in high school, has grown 2-3 inches since then and made the position change and only has limited tape so rating him any higher than a 3* at this point just wasn't going to happen. Jonathan Gipson was regarded as being an obvious 4* so should have his rating reflected going forward.
2) The ratings themselves, at this point in their football careers and before, are really only meant to be an estimate of where they will eventually be ranked in the final rankings before NSD. Kids move up and down as more information about what they can do and projections on what they could become are made. One example given was that SC's own Pro Bowler Carlos Dunlap was rated as a 3* before a final ratings increase.
3) with the way that they are going about recruiting, digging under rocks and kicking the tires on every prospect they can find within Muschamp's 5 hour driving distance, our staff is simply ahead of the recruiting industry in evaluating talent. Example given here was this cycle's LB Channing Tindall. Muschamp offered 3 months before any other major program and the guy is now rated, I believe, as the #1 OLB in this class.
4) A guy that has not only followed recruiting as a whole but specifically in the state of SC stated that with every class there is going to be 1 or 2 blue chippers from our state that don't pan out and there there is typically 1 or 2 3*stars that end up playing on Sunday.
1
Posted on 8/8/17 at 7:14 am to GameCocky88
Good post. I think the biggest point out of all of this would be
There's been a ton of guys we've offered and then they've received a lot more offers after our initial evaluation. Another thing that got my eye was this:
I wonder what the extent of our coaches telling kids they really like that aren't as well known yet to sit out camps to take advantage of things like being underrated. I suppose they don't do it too often since getting higher recruiting rankings is ideal, but when you introduce new offers from other schools you also introduce uncertainty.
Also,
quote:
our staff is simply ahead of the recruiting industry in evaluating talent.
There's been a ton of guys we've offered and then they've received a lot more offers after our initial evaluation. Another thing that got my eye was this:
quote:
Kids move up and down as more information about what they can do and projections on what they could become are made.
I wonder what the extent of our coaches telling kids they really like that aren't as well known yet to sit out camps to take advantage of things like being underrated. I suppose they don't do it too often since getting higher recruiting rankings is ideal, but when you introduce new offers from other schools you also introduce uncertainty.
Also,
quote:is one we absolutely MUST get.
LB Channing Tindall
This post was edited on 8/8/17 at 7:16 am
Posted on 8/8/17 at 7:21 am to atlgamecockman
quote:
our staff is simply ahead of the recruiting industry in evaluating talent.
There's been a ton of guys we've offered and then they've received a lot more offers after our initial evaluation. Another thing that got my eye was this:
One guy on our staff that I don't think gets enough credit for this, simply because he caught shite for play calling last year, is Kurt Roper. He was, per 247, the first to offer Joe Milton this cycle when he was a 3*. He offered in May of 2016. Milton's next offer wasn't until December 2016 by Syracuse. Now going into his Senior year, Miton has racked up 25 offers, went to the Elite 11, and is considered in the top 10 QBs in the nation. Had similar results with Tyler Shough from freaking AZ where we never recruit.
Posted on 8/8/17 at 7:56 am to GameCocky88
We just need to win on the field and the recruiting will take care of itself. By that I mean Muschamp and co. will continue to outwork other coaching staffs but we should see bigger names and more stars.
Just have to do it on the field. I am predicting 7-5 this season, a 2 game swing (not a lot) but if we can somehow eke out 8-4 I would have to think that would do a lot more work for us next cycle.
Just have to do it on the field. I am predicting 7-5 this season, a 2 game swing (not a lot) but if we can somehow eke out 8-4 I would have to think that would do a lot more work for us next cycle.
Posted on 8/9/17 at 2:33 am to atlgamecockman
quote:
I wonder what the extent of our coaches telling kids they really like that aren't as well known yet to sit out camps to take advantage of things like being underrated. I suppose they don't do it too often since getting higher recruiting rankings is ideal, but when you introduce new offers from other schools you also introduce uncertainty.
I really hope our staff doesn't tell kids this, because if they do, it's an instant-backfire type of situation that will create bad feelings from high school coaches, parents of prospects, and will be used by rival staffs against our own.
You don't advise kids not to take advantage of opportunities to showcase their abilities and earn more scholarship offers, because not every kid we recruit will ultimately come to USC. In some cases, kids we recruited strongly early on, fall down our boards and we move on past them.
If that happens, and they don't have fall-back offers because we advised them not to go to camps or things like that - It's a sure reputation-burning methodology right there......
There is nothing at all advantageous for a prospect about being underrated during recruiting season....
This post was edited on 8/9/17 at 2:35 am
Posted on 8/9/17 at 2:49 am to atlgamecockman
quote:
We just need to win on the field and the recruiting will take care of itself. By that I mean Muschamp and co. will continue to outwork other coaching staffs but we should see bigger names and more stars.
Just have to do it on the field. I am predicting 7-5 this season, a 2 game swing (not a lot) but if we can somehow eke out 8-4 I would have to think that would do a lot more work for us next cycle.
I am sort of taking a back-seat, just watch from a distance approach on this. I don't want to speak negatively about the staff, and always have high hopes for the team to have great seasons.
And I also know what holes Spurrier and his last staff left the program in for CWM and crew to work with. But the whole "we need to win games on the field, and recruiting will come our way", to me is too close to the whole "just wait 'till next year" mantra we used to have.
For one thing, its still a bone stuck in my craw that we're left in this hole by the Spurrier cast after going 42-11 over a 4-year period. Spurrier really had a chance to make a real PROGRAM with the success he had, and leave with the Keys to the state in his pocket. Instead, he left Gamecock Nation feeling bittersweet about the whole process, and wondering why they feel that way.
Now comes in Will Muschamp, who is supposed to be some great recruiter. He brings with him a great recruiting staff.
These aren't supposed to be recruiters that "win some games, and recruiting will take care of itself". That was what Spurrier and HIS crew were, had they not dropped the ball.
Muschamp is supposed to be the type of recruiter that performs DESPITE whatever the success is on the field. Of course, going 0-12 for 3-4 years in a row will seriously stain that stellar ability, but right now I'm seeing not much more than what the previous staff were doing. The previous staff were NOT heralded as great recruiters like CWM et al. are.
So I'm kinda sorta like, "meh" so far. We'll have another 7-6 type season, and pull in a class just inside the top 25. But we had most of our classes under Spurrier like that during all those 7-6 seasons he led us to. So right now to me Muschamp = Spurrier in recruiting for USC. That doesn't make me go "Whoo!"......
Posted on 8/9/17 at 1:00 pm to ConwayGamecock
I dunno.
I've been following this recruiting game very closely for the better part of 50 years. I always thought our two best head coaches, in terms of recognizing talent, we're Paul Dietzel and Jim Carlin. Coach Carlin in particular had a real eye for finding talent and getting them to sign here.
mUSChamp is now #1 IMHO. He's far superior to both Holtz and SPURrier ... and I mean I was really connected to both of those staffs and was able to follow and observe every aspect of how they went about recruiting, what their process was. I still talk to Dave Roberts from time to time ... he was perhaps the most dynamic recruiter we had as an assistant. He taught me a lot about how the game was played - he learned the game at Notre Dame and in the state of Texas while at Baylor.
Remember back a couple of years ago when I posted about our biggest hire would be Jesse Jackson - that's really panning-out to be true. But the entire methodology mUSChamp has instilled, the individual attention to each prospect and how they all receive the same treatment from top to bottom from our entire staff - it's the most impressive thing any of us could possibly imagine.
With that said, it all starts with the evaluation process and getting-in on a prospect very early these days. And, in that regard, I seriously down there is an organization anywhere doing it better than ours right at the moment.
Now, I was having a discussion the other day with a couple of other connected guys and we were pondering Clemson's recruiting success. All bias aside we're all convinced that they are back to their old tricks up there ... and we've seen some tricks from them over the decades - even helped to bust them a couple of times. It's just so apparent - especially in Georgia and Florida - and believe me there are people in both states just waiting for Dabo to slip-up and get caught. We all really feel that it's just a matter of time before they are caught again. Until then we have to give them some credit for what they are recruiting up there and we are going to have to find a way to match it in terms of the final product.
To do that we just need results on the field and we have to get back to beating them. We need to get to Atlanta and find a way into the playoffs, some how, some way. That way begins with signing solid talent and then out-developing everyone else around us. I do trust mUSChamp's eye for talent and I do trust this staff's ability to coach'em-up. So I do believe time and patience is key here but we absolutely cannot afford to take any backwards steps. UNC and NC State are both making moves - as is VA Tech. We recruit heavily against those programs as well as Georgia and Clemson and Tennessee. So we have to beat those programs when we go head-to-head ... that's the quickest way to success in the recruiting wars.
Right now mUSChamp is able to stress early playing time and specific needs at certain positions. Combined with this staff's ability to build relationships we've got a chance to sign any prospect we Target right now.
It's all a numbers game ... and I'm not talking about star ratings. I've actually been directly involved with star ratings and it's a famously inexact science too often determined by the size of a fan base and how many subscribers there may be on a certain site within a certain Network that pleases the subscribers of said sites. I mean Texas and Notre Dame are usually overrated for just that reason - I know that to be an absolute fact. So take that into consideration when judging our class rankings.
More importantly we want to sign a Top 20 class every year, sure ... but we want to fill specific needs with quality talent that desires to be here for a reason. Kids who want to be Gamecocks.
Another observation I've noticed about mUSChamp's methodology is that he goes after upstanding citizens. Kids that do well in the classroom. Well spoken kids. This is a key qualifier to him that, not only are they known as hard working blue collar football players, but they are also good people. And I think this is really going to pay off for us in the long run. We'll get our fair share of high profile prospects over time and they'll mix-in well with the blue collar guys and develop some really strong chemistry. ... and they'll be custom fit for our system and our program. I really believe that is going to prove to be mUSChamp's forte.
Long ways to go before NSD and we're going to finish strong. I honestly believe that. Our system these days is just too good not to ... there is a lot of confidence over there in their ability to identify, evaluate, camp, encourage, offer and sign good players. It's a two and three year process for every candidate from here-on-out and it will pay off.
We've got a real good shot at flipping a DB and signing a couple of big time DLinemen in this next class to go with what we already have committed. And this will be our last class that is such a war, a battle, to assemble. Beginning with the 2019 class it's going to become much more of a reloading effort where we are signing kids we've been building relationships with since their sophomore years in HS.
In the meantime - we're going to finally get back over the Top 20 bar with this 2018 class we're going to ink in February. That's provided we are very competitive this season. We do not have to win 9 or 10 games, although that would certainly exceed most realistic expectations, but we do have to be very competitive every time we take the field.
Win the ones we are supposed to win and win some we are not supposed to win and the ones we lose ... keep'em close and let everyone walk away knowing they just watched a helluva football game.
This class will be fine.
Sorry for being so long-winded about recruiting.
I've been following this recruiting game very closely for the better part of 50 years. I always thought our two best head coaches, in terms of recognizing talent, we're Paul Dietzel and Jim Carlin. Coach Carlin in particular had a real eye for finding talent and getting them to sign here.
mUSChamp is now #1 IMHO. He's far superior to both Holtz and SPURrier ... and I mean I was really connected to both of those staffs and was able to follow and observe every aspect of how they went about recruiting, what their process was. I still talk to Dave Roberts from time to time ... he was perhaps the most dynamic recruiter we had as an assistant. He taught me a lot about how the game was played - he learned the game at Notre Dame and in the state of Texas while at Baylor.
Remember back a couple of years ago when I posted about our biggest hire would be Jesse Jackson - that's really panning-out to be true. But the entire methodology mUSChamp has instilled, the individual attention to each prospect and how they all receive the same treatment from top to bottom from our entire staff - it's the most impressive thing any of us could possibly imagine.
With that said, it all starts with the evaluation process and getting-in on a prospect very early these days. And, in that regard, I seriously down there is an organization anywhere doing it better than ours right at the moment.
Now, I was having a discussion the other day with a couple of other connected guys and we were pondering Clemson's recruiting success. All bias aside we're all convinced that they are back to their old tricks up there ... and we've seen some tricks from them over the decades - even helped to bust them a couple of times. It's just so apparent - especially in Georgia and Florida - and believe me there are people in both states just waiting for Dabo to slip-up and get caught. We all really feel that it's just a matter of time before they are caught again. Until then we have to give them some credit for what they are recruiting up there and we are going to have to find a way to match it in terms of the final product.
To do that we just need results on the field and we have to get back to beating them. We need to get to Atlanta and find a way into the playoffs, some how, some way. That way begins with signing solid talent and then out-developing everyone else around us. I do trust mUSChamp's eye for talent and I do trust this staff's ability to coach'em-up. So I do believe time and patience is key here but we absolutely cannot afford to take any backwards steps. UNC and NC State are both making moves - as is VA Tech. We recruit heavily against those programs as well as Georgia and Clemson and Tennessee. So we have to beat those programs when we go head-to-head ... that's the quickest way to success in the recruiting wars.
Right now mUSChamp is able to stress early playing time and specific needs at certain positions. Combined with this staff's ability to build relationships we've got a chance to sign any prospect we Target right now.
It's all a numbers game ... and I'm not talking about star ratings. I've actually been directly involved with star ratings and it's a famously inexact science too often determined by the size of a fan base and how many subscribers there may be on a certain site within a certain Network that pleases the subscribers of said sites. I mean Texas and Notre Dame are usually overrated for just that reason - I know that to be an absolute fact. So take that into consideration when judging our class rankings.
More importantly we want to sign a Top 20 class every year, sure ... but we want to fill specific needs with quality talent that desires to be here for a reason. Kids who want to be Gamecocks.
Another observation I've noticed about mUSChamp's methodology is that he goes after upstanding citizens. Kids that do well in the classroom. Well spoken kids. This is a key qualifier to him that, not only are they known as hard working blue collar football players, but they are also good people. And I think this is really going to pay off for us in the long run. We'll get our fair share of high profile prospects over time and they'll mix-in well with the blue collar guys and develop some really strong chemistry. ... and they'll be custom fit for our system and our program. I really believe that is going to prove to be mUSChamp's forte.
Long ways to go before NSD and we're going to finish strong. I honestly believe that. Our system these days is just too good not to ... there is a lot of confidence over there in their ability to identify, evaluate, camp, encourage, offer and sign good players. It's a two and three year process for every candidate from here-on-out and it will pay off.
We've got a real good shot at flipping a DB and signing a couple of big time DLinemen in this next class to go with what we already have committed. And this will be our last class that is such a war, a battle, to assemble. Beginning with the 2019 class it's going to become much more of a reloading effort where we are signing kids we've been building relationships with since their sophomore years in HS.
In the meantime - we're going to finally get back over the Top 20 bar with this 2018 class we're going to ink in February. That's provided we are very competitive this season. We do not have to win 9 or 10 games, although that would certainly exceed most realistic expectations, but we do have to be very competitive every time we take the field.
Win the ones we are supposed to win and win some we are not supposed to win and the ones we lose ... keep'em close and let everyone walk away knowing they just watched a helluva football game.
This class will be fine.
Sorry for being so long-winded about recruiting.
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